John L Hargreaves

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Jim Shields  0:03  
Pinewood Studios, on the fourth of August 1993. There isn't a cut from moment to start.

John Hargreaves  0:18  
That's right. You see, 48 years is a long time, Jim, really? whether we'll make the 50 or not really, is it the luck of somebody else? You know, it's not. It's not for me to say but looking out over these gardens, I mean, nothing's changed, the trees are higher. Some have disappeared, you know, the bad winds of 87. And all that kind of thing is

Jim Shields  0:42  
where your journey where we were born and

John Hargreaves  0:46  
when I was like you should are born. I was born in freckleton. Neil Adamson downs, and we live there for two or three years and then the cotton mill. My father's a weaver gotten Weaver and when the mill mill town he said, Well, we've got to move to where the work is. I mean, these days, they don't like that very much, but this is what happened. So we moved into Burnley some 30 miles east, earthen there he got work in a cotton mill. Then a few years later, the cotton mill closed down at Burnley. So we moved back to freckleton by which down the cotton mill and we reopened and so this is how it was we were seven times in in 18 years. And then in 1944 when unfortunately I was medically unfit for the Army and the Navy and the Air Force I was on home guard duty guard in Burnley railway station. I can never understand why. But we did that and we did a lot of hospital work and carrying things around and cycling up and down all hours of the night. But I saw an advert in the Daily Telegraph saying that the right organisation we're going to get into the business of filmmaking how they wanted production accountants with a budgetary knowledge well I'd done about four years with the with the Lucas grew up in Burnley making tanks and things. And so the budgeting the time study work came in very useful interview with Mr. Robinson in 1944 and got the job in January 45. It took a month to get released from the the work of national importance but along with a lot of others Arthur cleaver under the now Lee Steve file a new name that we all got our releases and started working at Shepherds Bush in January 1945. And the rest is history and the company was called production facilities films we were known as pf BFF or fearful for shores rescues my stammer. But I've had this for a long time before for short, and we took over the worthy account in the rank funding of filmmaking at all six studios. Remember there was Highbury and Shepherds Bush there is denim and there was Pinewood there was bekins field. There a lot of studios in those days. We did look after the mall and I came to denim from Shepherds Bush in 45. Then in later 45 we started a pitcher's den and couldn't cater for called London town, which Wesley Ruggles directed. She's done. Charlie Ruggles,

Jim Shields  3:49  
sinister. Okay.

John Hargreaves  3:50  
Well, that's right. All right, said see COVID and Kendall used to travel on the train with me, most mornings remarked rich to West Drayton, and then West Drayton to stay and he was a lovely girl. And they the young leaders back Clark, whose father used to stand behind all the the sex and makes that no one played around whether I got in a way or interfered and that was the made the first major film they were doing a Margaret Lockwood picture when I was at the bush. First before that, they were I think it was wicked lady memories a bit vague. That was That was awkward. Well, that's right. I think if he was about that time, I think Leslie Arliss directed the pitch. I know it was hell of a ride one day between him and James Mason and and they thumped each other and the shooting was called off for the day. We're also Tom but there were happy days really filmmaking finance, literally financed by the UK market and those days have gone Of course, they ended in in 59 1360 where Right beside that, that the overdraft was big enough, you shouldn't get any bigger. And so the that was the end of British film funding films Jen has about the same time they've done by nominal films

Jim Shields  5:12  
because that's right. Of course. People like that. Right. Last time he films

John Hargreaves  5:23  
The government schemes were brought in Ed was brought in there was funding here, there and everywhere but never enough money to make a film. We tried to revive this by way of taking in sort of other names name dropping, really. But if you take the people who ran the highlight filmmakers, which began in 59, a scheme to make films with a rank 70% guarantee to the rest of the money to be found. So I'm from nffc. So I'm from wherever. And we made six pitches here. And they all made money, but they were still received checks on some of these pitches. Now. Bryanston then started, right and we were members of Bryanston rails, and Basel Didn't we were directors, a briars company. And we made a series of pitches at 10 pitches, I believe it's Harry Saltzman was involved and various other people. And so that was a brave effort to get some UK money back into the system. But that run out that petered out in the end of the 60s, you know, and unfortunately, it's never been tried. I'm sure if someone got down, we've often did this, cast it in our board meetings at ally, and I'm still involved with allied if I only told you to dig in Brian a few weeks ago about this very thing. So there is a future though. Welcome.

Jim Shields  6:55  
It's like a Rembrandt uncooperative,

that these things go on forever. on for years, you could be with a producer I worked for. And I went up to his office one day he returned from South Africa. Argentina films are made before the war.

John Hargreaves  7:14  
Yes, right. Yes. I think a little

Jim Shields  7:16  
bit coming in a little bit coming in.

John Hargreaves  7:18  
Yeah. He, I know was perhaps getting a bit personal now. But I never like the way that the television deals were original. I don't think anybody did. I mean, that is preserved producers, they will I want a bit of cash. And so he literally saw large speeches for 10,000 pounds or some ridiculous figure. Now this was the worst day's work ever done. Because we've never had a right price for a film. I mean, how can you spend $5 million right on a picture that takes time and effort and, and skills and artistic integrity? All that kind of thing? You know, give it to a third party to show it to 10 million people? Right? We're paying a postage stamp, rent of bloody T.

Jim Shields  8:02  
What is happening is terrible is happening in the videos. Well, that's right.

John Hargreaves  8:07  
throwing it away. If you're just

Jim Shields  8:08  
throwing it around $54 million picture. Somebody goes down the road and rents it for about 50. Yes, yes. Yeah. But I don't have my Republic backing out really over the first year? Because they stopped producing. Yes. And then also for the people that worked on it. I mean, if you work and you make a chair, it's so once we made films with the understanding they were first set for theatrical. Yeah. And they be sold and sold and sold as we never got anything extra for nothing at all. Oh, my God. I was on a picture in Miami once and I looked in the paper last Saturday, the last five films that worked on some of them. Yes. Previously, with the cost five, or nine. I know they have a lot of channels. That's right. This is where the finances go wrong. That's right. Because when the majors I mean, the amount of money should have been pulled back in again,

John Hargreaves  8:56  
mostly sure they should have paid the right price to start with the shorter. So have a let's see what we're at now. It's obviously here to stay because television was talked about a long time ago before we've been around a long time before. It was obvious that we're going to need feeding with material I was brought up. So that was about stuff. We've never really got over that.

Jim Shields  9:18  
I agree. No, I agree. Because I think the trouble is with us independent companies like pictures. disbanded. Yes. And so that really that money never shows again. No, I'll make you a picture whereby in the old days when it was the majors, and they made a lot of money out of a picture. Hopefully it was put back into generalisation and they made more pictures from it. And that was the difference.

John Hargreaves  9:43  
Yeah, I can't see. And he said people are now caught on to this. Whereas you get repeat fees. You get a lot of these commercial TV commercials have. You name it, coffee, whatever and they must be painted, pointed out and done. Then

Jim Shields  10:02  
repeat fees balance really as a happy Yes. I mean,

John Hargreaves  10:06  
so there is money there he wanted to do I

Jim Shields  10:09  
mean, I know I've got to we all got points on Chariots of Fire, because David was very much an insurance policy as

John Hargreaves  10:17  
well this was a way of financing we've done I'm briars down

Jim Shields  10:20  
is what we did we did with an idea we've been done. We didn't take less money because of it.

John Hargreaves  10:25  
No. Well, then that's I mean, that's very, very nice.

Jim Shields  10:27  
We've got pointed with he believe in a pension fund. And that is really the way and yes, it's like when I announced it was going to be nice. When the press it was announced he was going to be on BBC television. They sold to the BBC, three weeks later. And by the way, there's only two p

John Hargreaves  10:44  
is the principal. It's Tom Jones isn't the case in point. I mean, you've got a friend of mine did very well.

Unknown Speaker  10:49  
Can't remember.

John Hargreaves  10:51  
Well, Mike, and I call it nice. He said I heard incidence died. I don't

Jim Shields  10:58  
follow that up. The story is that when Henry Richardson the director was down, he was actually at Twickenham. He had a phone call saying where do we say the negative is negative? There's negative and Tom Jones. And he having only said previous just previously, he would never sell any of this stuff. And television suddenly realised that negative was his, which he forgotten about and didn't know about. And a few months later, it was run on BBC show. He said

John Hargreaves  11:27  
principles go out of their way every now you've got to pay the rent, got to pay the rent. It's

Jim Shields  11:34  
a shame. It's a shame. It's all changed, because you've been smashing? Yes. Yes, very nice. But you have changed. There's still

John Hargreaves  11:40  
a lot of talent about you see, you've got these marvellous studios equipment, the know how you've got all facilities available. And yet he tried your walk down the corridor, I went down on the other morning, that can't be true. There was no one inside. No one at all. You know, I waved at the guard before I left the ground. And that was the only guy I saw God. Yeah. So he wasn't making pictures. He doing a good job, but he wasn't involved with filmmaking. And I really saw no one that morning.

Jim Shields  12:12  
We started the long corridor with the accountants are downstairs. years ago, you walk along do not necessarily offer a job or Hello, how are you? How are you there? Yes, I walked out. I knew one person. Yeah, it was an assistant account. I mean, no one else at all. Which you happen to know without nobody there and there's one person I knew.

John Hargreaves  12:34  
Well, I remember going to dinner just after it closed down and the corridor there was wide or insofar as you got to get down it to get to the Music Theatre on the right hand side is your Wendy's you know, and there was no one he was I Seven Hills ruled that corridor, and then he went up and then over and up and all at all charges and absolute tragedy. And then it's a pile of rubble, you know,

Unknown Speaker  13:00  
where you will you will

John Hargreaves  13:02  
enable good days with to learn, you see, to learn how to go on the floor to know exactly what was happening, you will

Jim Shields  13:07  
have to learn then but now so many things, only things that we did an outcome and knowledge and everybody doesn't yet but you will you think you will with the Rank Organisation Can

John Hargreaves  13:16  
you maybe got a nice one right up to 19 years, right up to 1959. We were on the payroll right from the days of 45 years, the and this was occasionally they give you a rise in salary. But I mean, we never really made a lot of money. But we worked hard. And we were very happy because this is where it all happened in the film studios. You can have bikes and you can have completion gun doors and ensure you never go into the the end of the day you come by to the production to film the script and the words put together in the sense of Bill. When the actors and the health is then edited. The sound is added which gives you the magic and the whole thing is his magic gem and you to learn every phase of production we were given a list how to make a match shot, how a match shot was made and how things are this guy we didn't memorise this, go and see him doing it. We hadn't. We'd visit to the labs in those days. You know, Jen gets nothing you say good dad. I'll show you what happens. We learned a hell of a lot music sessions. We

Jim Shields  14:18  
were there. And I think that's the difference now is that i mean i i can remember when I worked with Odin brothers, army composable Benny Frankel. When we were getting ready to W. Very Frank was going to do the music. We'll be going to the theatre. We brought him over there and he had to be there and I'd be there buddy Frankel. And he discussed where we would discuss where he wanted music and He will say to me, what sort of effects when I sent him a copy of but now I have a Media Composer. And again, getting the WTF and the same with the effects and the music, flesh of it. I had no idea what was going to be different.

John Hargreaves  15:07  
Well, you see 19 where would this be? No, in 1953 we did a budget for Joe Jani and Jeff Lee of a town like ours, Virginia McKenna, Peter Finch. It was way too high. And john Davis No way. No way. am I spending money even though it was a very hot subject. In fact, they were looking to rock the dams on the rights. But also john said for us one day, we went to these and is there any way you can make this bit can be made, but probably at least 100,000 pounds from the budget. And I ventured a suggestion I did a little in thinking after that, or plan was to be very brave. In those days, I said, Well, why don't you cut down the number of people who die on the trail on the march? So I said, that's a good idea. I said once, four or five have died, they, it doesn't mean any more, because there's 50, but it doesn't mean anything. So they rewrote the script. And they're four or five die, you know, we found it was about 70 odd 1000 pounds, they found that and the second idea was don't take Virginia to Malaya use a double. So Giuliani and I went out there and he used me de jure to go into bars and, and tennis clubs and swimming pools and things. 21 days and you go in there. So it's you know, you go in, I'm not going in I went in yesterday. So he sent me into this tennis club and lying on the ground ball. All these lovely girls. Mark was doing this was a great part of the business to story. But they're all true. There was this girl and she was the wife of a naval man who was stationed in Singapore. And so I got around, she talked to john, she got the job. And she was Virginia double and we made the pitch and nobody knows that Virginia wasn't allowed. And I slid down dam and chuckling worked wonders with the cameraman. The angles is the side shots, you know, marvellous film, and it's still taking money out much better than the other one that was made the same story. A great film A B defence went. You went out and one day we found him sitting on the sidewalk, you know, throwing the dice, coins in the gutter with the locals, but they were great days with no money really. always had a nice hotel. I mean, they always looked up to you. I mean, what we used to find the hotels ourselves anyway. But I mean, we always looked after the

Jim Shields  17:51  
group in extra random films. I mean, permanent star. Yeah. Fantastic money. Yeah. But you had a so called permanent job. And everybody was friendly. Nobody had a knife out for you. And it was really present

John Hargreaves  18:07  
on the moltar story, which right? Did you know In 51, would it be nice and Mr. Robbins said I wanted to get a mould book nice hotels. And he said, Get a plane in the morning. This was the Saturday of the August bank holiday weekend. He said we'll send you some money down and money didn't go until the Thursday of the following week as they begin to find your own money in those days. You didn't say look, I'm not leaving this room till you give me whether we just did it. We went there and obviously not at Amelia ball. But you've got paid back at the end of the day when the film was a good world good film. Yes. So it all came to an end at age 60 and then the these little groups were formed as a allied and Brian's than another companies and thought that the dollar rate of exchange was such that the Americans started to come in because it paid the domain airfields here on the cheap you know, would have been 50% more costly in America

Jim Shields  19:15  
money out of the country anyways,

John Hargreaves  19:17  
so they can spend it. And this of course helped out because he took care of a few 1000 technicians he wouldn't have been working at all the British good British governments couldn't afford them. But by we got rid of all its staff as Dr. Shepherd I did all the studios Elstree, they probably kept the stills department and they always kept a sound department. That was one of the best really, but they're all good they're all very denisha The sound is so important.

Jim Shields  19:52  
He says nothing has changed now of course because there was West rates at one place RCA over another all the desk rather different banality. So Stan and people can interchange. Yeah, that's right. Yes. And then you went after that not and what have you. Well, I

John Hargreaves  20:07  
dried basil and Michael and Dickey, and Brian and we really worked together. I've worked on all our films in the wrong box and King rat and Stepford Wives. The whispers, you know, set up an illustrious, and then the setup. Brian and I moved in there in May 69. On instructions do do with the flow of the revolving fund of some 5 million we made some very good pictures when you look back on railway jolin we introduced Lionel into the business very good director lion I don't know why he isn't director Teddy dolphin Of course, he kept the picture. We had we had real quick German Adele's a Beatrice Potter made a lot of money. And the best film on the mall that go between which no one say go in there, they don't know they go between was the Joe Lawson picture. And john Herrmann is he was a producer and is allowed to we make this feature, we came up with a scheme to pay the very little money, a percentage of the gross 10% of the gross was split down between these people, and or whatever they're forgetting. But it's all they're all made money. Everyone's got pay. They're lovely, pale, lovely picture. There were some fields can be made you say yes, it was prepared to take a

Jim Shields  21:37  
risk one of those in there Newman, and it was very good. I remember.

John Hargreaves  21:40  
Well, that was one of the raging mood videos lovely, lovely pinching and

Jim Shields  21:49  
dirty business, you

John Hargreaves  21:50  
know that it was a beautiful picture. Now that didn't do anything. It was badly handled badly. Well, it wasn't sold at all, really. It was badly handled by the by the group at the time by EMI. And

Jim Shields  22:03  
and unfortunately,

John Hargreaves  22:05  
well, yes. Well, they're the differences. They're in the same folder. And then of course, other people get into Elstree. That's a sad story stories.

Jim Shields  22:17  
That was kind of

John Hargreaves  22:21  
terrible. Just went out of the window, then in the dagoretti of filmmaking, right out of the window. So we've been excuse, I've been with a completion bond company now for what, 11 years, you see. Yes, they are used to see all these people, they're a menace, check in on what you're doing. But of course, then I found myself doing and I didn't like it. At first, I thought, well, like I'm being too faced here. And I don't like you, I still don't like it, you know? Because you see, really you can stand him on know, what is he doing though, when they dig in there won't be in the film near the cutting room floor at all. That's a waste of time. But somehow you got to say, Well, no, if I were making the picture, perhaps I would have done exactly this.

Jim Shields  23:07  
I think that is

John Hargreaves  23:08  
you've got to step back and hope that they will call you in and say, Look, we're running out of money. You know, we've made a lot of mistakes, and we've got no money left. Well, this is the nightmare of a guarantor. Because really, he might have done something about it if he'd had that power earlier, you know, but you can't interfere in the creative. So otherwise they will have this picture would have been all right. But for those guys, listen, this is where it's so easy. You can't interfere move from

Jim Shields  23:36  
the producer, powerful producer to the direct announcement. Yes. It goes big thing now is editing a script. I mean, I read a script on most web on the old days, and the ads were filled 90 minutes long. Yeah. Just came off the floor. You had 9394 minutes to play around with. That's where the money goes. Yes. When you throw away to two hours. Yeah. times of film is edited together. Yes. And you throw away. I mean, how? Half two hours of film so money? Yes. Money. They did experience more now. Yeah. Used to Yes. Which we really used to be so that's

John Hargreaves  24:13  
quite true. Yes. There's no one really breaking them down and assessing what worked required. what's essential. May is not easy or getting to an artistic, there's all the math.

Jim Shields  24:29  
On the screen, we all visualise what we think

John Hargreaves  24:31  
no one's really prepared to take the blame if something this year. Well, of course you haven't played around with that scene, you know, it would have worked better and why didn't they cut that and the tolls up? It's too slow in that area. Why didn't they lose that seat completely. You can't win really. So it's as well to just call me down at a time and hope that the director knows what he's doing. But a lot of directors would like a strong produce To turn to and discuss with other awesome about it we will be working with some recently where he's worked every day. And there's been a very powerful link between the director and the way the scenes have been handled on level under producer. So what he'd envisage seeing when he read the script year before. So it does work but they're not TV people around. Some of them are good. Some are amateurish, really when it comes to do, do do entertaining, big thing you've got to care about people, whatever their films trying to do, whether you're laughing or dry, but you have to care for characters to be really entertained. This is why this older brother, he didn't care. That's the Saudis, talent there a lot of talent and good intentions. A lot of people I know a lot of these is appropriate

Jim Shields  26:02  
time for other stuff. That's the impression you get for television, they got to fill a slot they've got to Yes, that's weird. Why would you make them feel good buddy drag people out in the cinema? Yes.

John Hargreaves  26:14  
But it has to be entertained and you have to care for the people making it? Do you make a dog with you all day, really, perhaps we should have another girls. Do you really gym, the actual basis of cost in a budget in a film hasn't changed, you know, since the 40s. Since since we were doing it in those early days, you've got to work out how many days work which gives you so many hours give you so many minutes. And into that a guesswork was then made as to how many setups you get per hour per day, over the 810 week, shed whatever it was you chose. And in that way you split it down into units, then you arrive at a figure. Now in those early days, we did daily Gostin and we used to do split every salary right down to editorial camera department, the production unit, every salary person was split down, do a six have a day of the week be he these days would not be a fifth and daily cost will be issued with an amount of money against each particular department, address in Word write down the list. And you know which sets at the bottom and then a proportion to cover the overheads on the above, which was sort of a non cost as it were and you would that you would then say Well, look, we spent 1000 pounds. Yes, today on normal, everyday items, but the crowd which you then took as an actual game to 1000 pounds. Because it was a big crowd day. The next day, the salaries would be at 1000 pounds again, right? There's nothing to change, no one got fired or any. But the crowd artists would be down to 400 because it was a small crowd and the film will be down because the director at only shot for all he said of six or what everyone. So in that way on the desk of the management every morning, following morning was the cost of yesterday's shooting, whether in the studio or on location. This gave you a very clear picture of what everything's costing. That's how we learn the job. At the transport, you take out the cars and say well look, every car is worth a five or a day it was in those days. Right other 14 of them. So we brought in 70 pounds they pride have been 75 boundary vitamins 69. But it was a pretty good estimate right? Now, that theory should still be around today. Unfortunately, it isn't. So now that the exigencies of the production demand, how much you spend on transport, and unfortunately, production production offices today are prone to having established a norm said right, well, we've got 10 cars, we've got 10 trucks, we've got some people. It's a nice work in it. Let's leave it at that. Let's leave it at that why play around with cheering himself today? Because tomorrow, we may need you back again. So in this way, costs have risen not nearly through the cost of living but purely through the cost of operating a film and it's now in preparing the budget while compared with budgets. And again going back to the thought is we were able to compare every day was it over budget 100 pounds. If so, this mountain parties I've got a bit of a sleeve, pull it back next week and in that way we're able to average over a week what the cost was, but Jim there was wrong. They were not computers and you got to go Add everything into that cost ledger that week. And you two added up the one of your Nadeem machines. You know, when I was around in the 40s, it was down the line. And the other line my father did with a pen and in seconds, it's a well, he, he came to 1050 pounds, he was 50 too much, it's got to be 1000. So another day, you've got to find the point I'm trying to get at is that every film had a basic cost, irrespective of the story where it was being shot, because you had fixed units of cost, which very rarely changed. Now, unfortunately, if your memory takes you by we didn't make all that good a film in the 40s in the 50s with the Rank Organisation now I know this may sound heresy, but the fact is they were to do much of a sameness. And I often wonder whether we didn't spend just a little too much time on caring and wondering about whether daily costs right and were we doing things right, if there had been a bit more excitement in those beaches, a bit more artistic development of the story with a few more

risk take and I'm getting the single view of the more exciting storyline. I think we might have developed unfortunately by 1958 nine as I said last week, the rank production outfit was falling apart because the films were not taking the money they showed now another factor there we couldn't get into the American market well this is well known we could never get right could never get is. I'll tell you a true story. Now I sat in a plane going to New York with ranked right hand man whose name was Hargreaves, a gentleman by had to be sat down with a doctor. And he said to me that I've been given a year. He said he's given me a year to get this American of this work in and he said if I don't do this, he made two years he said, but if I don't succeed, I'm out. Jam he was out. In under the two years, he just couldn't get a hold of that American market. So the the combination of the lack of distribution facilities in the USA, in the Western Hemisphere, as we call it, the rather dull content of the films, which hit as I say a rather dark patch about the mid 50s. That brought the rain production right down till it finally faded away. Now, coming on to the smaller companies, you're allowed filmmakers and your brand stands and beat we just discussed last week. There we use the knowledge of our casting ability, but we made subjects that were more down to earth or you may say well, it was kitchen sink, subjects all the time. I'm not saying we should have kitchen sink subject, but the fact remains you've got a more down to earth, earthy quality in the films and they took off. Nice. There was a demand for them. And they were brought in on budget. We didn't have a guarantor on any of our pitches. I've never heard anybody wanting they often say why have you done this? Why did you do that? We didn't need them. It basil did and said you'd shoot a scene in a day than basil shoulda seen that day. He'd say come on every month through the viewfinder, Johnny. That's the shot I'm doing. And I'll be offered three. Charlie all been up to see our generic plans lead five to this. Oh, I know. It's five to three. I'll be offer three. And out of room for general. These boys anyway, they were doing certainly the alien boys the same. Mackendrick and hammer and these people out Yes. was very nice. Well, that's right. Well, quite definitely was really there. He did his planning. did his homework. He would know the dialogue. It said us that. That isn't the line. You know? That's the line.

Jim Shields  34:07  
Yes. So this is really business line. Yes, that is really true, john. Yeah.

John Hargreaves  34:13  
But it goes, No, you're reaching 30 big numbers, where in fact, the numbers don't matter. If you can see a beach, the Jurassic Park at three 400 $500 million every go to dinner. No one's gonna worry whether you got 14 cars, there's 16. Now you know, the time making the film, they must have realised that well, cost doesn't really matter. I mean, let's This is a great idea. It might. It's certainly going to do a lot of business but it might do a lot on a lot of business. Or it may just do very good business. But whichever it was planned, it was going to make its money and not only cost resources it was going to make its money and so they are in a position now. To go way out and spend sums of money knowing full well they're going to come back. But the money's going to come back the question of who is and who is not bankable? This is a problem today. I read the small print in variety and screen these various publications come around and adopt to the Americans a lot on the telephone about as much as they say there's very few filmmakers are bankable, very few artists, you've probably gathered on a couple of rounds, their vast normal, there's probably a dozen people who can really determine what the veggie robot box office would be in relation to their fill. This is worrying because it means one thing that the beeper is still not going back to the centre in the numbers we want to roll over they did increasing it agree it's on the up and up here and very much so in America. But the run of the mill fill will not draw them in

Jim Shields  36:01  
for your friend to spend over money on purpose.

John Hargreaves  36:03  
You really got to push that out. And also

Jim Shields  36:05  
remember seeing guys queuing up to see one of the real world pictures. And people were talking about Spielberg in not who was in it. Harrison Ford, they were talking about Spielberg and I think if he does a picture then Spielberg actually they go to Australia. Okay, who's in the film? Well, that's right. He's made the things must be clever,

John Hargreaves  36:27  
is clever advertised, but this costs a lot of money. And now work can easily double the cost of the negative, you know, by adding in its advertising, breadcrumb. And the publicity in the television slot alone, you're looking at 1000s for a few seconds, you know, those details the pays off?

Jim Shields  36:45  
First time, remember that happening was trapeze? Yes. Negative cost is the first time it's ever been done. Yes, that was

John Hargreaves  36:54  
good entertainment.

Jim Shields  36:55  
But it made a lot of money because of the publicity. Yes. That time was television started. Yeah.

John Hargreaves  37:03  
We have a problem now. Uh, you know, the bike. I know they, they make a lot of fuss about banks, and we woo them and you send a Christmas card and all that carry on the fact remains that abidan really doesn't take any risk. There's no one in this me, no one in London is prepared several availa there's a check, ride we made money will share. If we do well with these great fanca. There's nothing like that about at all. So a bank loan has got to be a concrete insistence on getting back X number of months later. Well, anybody can do that for him. And let's face it, we find ourselves in trouble. From a bonding point of view, if a distributor doesn't like a film, then he's looking for every means possible to pull out of the deal. Now, there have been cases of this, you know, where the bikes a lot, we are concerned with the artistic side of the animal. And we're not concerned with whether this man does the right thing. Or they doesn't if this film, we don't get our money back for this film on October 1, you will pay as the money you the guarantor bears the money. So we say just say normally, we'll do not business, we're not in the business financing ventures, or deciding who's gonna see them or count in the box office ticket, that's not our job. Our job is to see, given certain under certain conditions, that film will be delivered on October 3, as per the script, that we all are no confirmation that you're going to have a box office winner on your hands. And you know, whether they like the performance of the main office or the directors not our problem, we will see that the money spent legitimately on making the film that you were asked to lend the money on in the first place. So usually, there's another aspect creeping in there, which makes it more difficult for the financing of a pitcher. Where you get development Monday from I just don't know these days, this really is a problem. And there's no good answer. The question is,

Unknown Speaker  39:24  
well,

John Hargreaves  39:26  
you can't make a film just by it's not possible, you need a dozen subjects need to bear them down to four or five, you need to say, well, that's the one I'm going to make nine full well, it contains all ingredients you need. And then there's no guarantees, but I mean, none of it at least it's as it's as far as you can without data money. Now who is who do we know? Today? I mean, there's big in this studio now. You take the paper in the restaurant at lunchtime. Anyone in there can say well look, there's 25 grand behind Write a synopsis, take a trip and find the locations and come back with a budget. There wasn't anyone that you know, anymore. Yeah. Okay. Which restaurant you shepherded? Oh, laser ambassadors, you know, there's nobody. Well, that's fine. I know of no concern in the UK who will turn around? So yes, I am admittedly making pitches

Unknown Speaker  40:28  
25 times.

John Hargreaves  40:30  
If you make it I get it back,

Jim Shields  40:31  
obviously. But

John Hargreaves  40:32  
it's risk money. That venture capital. You don't have to sell your house or mortgage it. That's the cash. Those people are not around and fix here repetition. They haven't been anybody. There's been no one since. Since the Rank Organisation pull out. They were doing that. They were doing that. Mr. overseas, what money do you need? You would say Well, I've got to do their budget that is preparing the written budget will be about 10,000 pounds. I would lie. Right? Right. I put it to the board on Monday. In the meantime, the boss would have read the script they tend to divide. So very good idea. There's the data unit. This is how it has to do to get by now they still have this the system in Hollywood I know it's run by agents and accountants but basically this one's all about that they are prepared to spend X dollars on developing a programme. Unfortunately, there's no one in England prepared to do that.

Jim Shields  41:45  
She I didn't realise that before that there was that problem. I thought I didn't think the development problem was a problem. I thought it was just getting the financial of the final team I know plenty of plenty of preps people ring me

John Hargreaves  41:59  
every day I get a call two or three times a week for papers to help you read this correctly centres in a script that this everyone to deal with here. They're never good, but we really need some money to take it to the next stage. And it's this money that isn't around. Sad, Jim, but it's still a great industry and when the money is there, and the idea is developed and the script does come forward and he only first budget production meeting and you've got the art department there. They're all excited. They throw drawings on the day. Well that's what we're going to do and yes, but you can't do they can't afford that they can have this is so magically it isn't true. There's nothing like this industry

Jim Shields  42:47  
at all. I mean, it's not we we have the joy. like normal between is normally perfectly shot. Joy of putting the finishing touches to it. Well, that's

John Hargreaves  42:59  
wonderful. You must have that you must have the most satisfactory of anyone really

Jim Shields  43:03  
in housing. I couldn't work on knowing what it was

John Hargreaves  43:07  
well, he could be boring but it's it's exciting but in there sort of hard graft really. Because every day every hour, every minute counts in what you're doing and

Jim Shields  43:24  
all the time. Well, you

John Hargreaves  43:25  
can relax and you can look at a scene on a movie. I said no, no, that isn't right. Prove that they need to sit back and let your imaginations take off. On the floor. You don't have that luxury. So you're looking at the watch all the time you know that the eyes are clicking by an audio book to get rid of that artist is wanted somewhere else you got to finish the weekend is 30,000 a week you got no way can you play about there's no reason the director said Look, I might take 15 but that was someone breathing down his neck. Say we haven't done for this.

Jim Shields  44:04  
Now he's I think the money is wasted now and we're not having ties. I think well yes. Yes. You want a 90 minute picture you come up with a 9394 earring but nowadays they come up with two and a half three hours. Yes.

John Hargreaves  44:18  
doesn't do much fill you see and yet we budget the budget they will say what shall we allow for finish in 16 weeks? Or yes the producer says Oh, fine. Got it all weeks and we're lucky enough for sound in six weeks then we double it so on so in 10 week dwell we get a print preview a second time you say so you put down editor blogs 16 weeks for any goal they silly really. In the meantime, the directors you see a shot through 1000 feet of film he's trapped he really can't move

Unknown Speaker  44:53  
to fill

John Hargreaves  44:54  
everywhere. I mean all the hooks on the floor and you're never supposed to side You're 16 You're joking is our shot have a sense out of this until you know, eight to 10 weeks away? So

Jim Shields  45:07  
I don't understand through this stuff.

John Hargreaves  45:09  
No meat down they fixed in the delivery dead with the bank. We get called out a column either way from the banks and a dispatch your, your delivery next week.

Jim Shields  45:20  
You certainly know

John Hargreaves  45:22  
how not. I said a month. But you've never done this. The date is there. I said we're in a fault. They're in the legal liasion somewhere. But certainly we agree with the produce that no way could you deliver this role on that original day when we weren't notified immediately about this because this extends the the law. And it wasn't a forced maturity call because someone that the random act of God didn't know could do anything about it was just the fact there was so much film and so much doubt in people's minds to watch. The Final Cut should be that they weren't

John Hargreaves  0:08  
That's perfect to be able to really anticipate this week than six months before you come round during that call for a lot of inside experience to be made known the title of preparing the subject, you know,

very rare that happens. Certainly we have better in the UK than other country. I

mean, you take Australia and they don't have a script editor. I mean, the films come out of there are long and drawn out and repetition in I mean, I love that subjects, but they really need expertise, putting in there for some expertise in in preparing the script before they spend a penny on filming them. So we're not all that bad here.

Jim Shields  0:56  
I don't think we are I think that

John Hargreaves  0:59  
there are some directors who take advantage of the fact that they think they're the kingpins you know, they can do what they want, and they make their producers look stupid, I think they do a purpose that they like to show off, because of the cost of the experience they

Jim Shields  1:17  
want to throw into the shoe. And they'd be like,

John Hargreaves  1:21  
Yes, that's right, you know, they're held into high esteem, they want to be fired want to take one or two directors fired a few more times. It's already been known that we don't, we're not going to be played around

Jim Shields  1:32  
by these guys. You know, the Directors Guild is a strong,

John Hargreaves  1:37  
of very, very strong, very, very strong. I don't know why Hollywood allowed that to

Jim Shields  1:44  
come about really, because the director used to be gone for it like everybody else wants to time. Yes. post production in the front office took over the rest of the picture to go to the finishing of the picture one time. He went on Friday night like everybody

John Hargreaves  2:00  
else. Yeah, that's interesting. I don't really know of any age, except that. I think most of the emailing days they possibly did something like that

Jim Shields  2:11  
really was very much a committee really put on post production, was it? Yes. I mean, they before they dumped, they go into a theatre for a week before they dove in and they run all the tracks and Everybody sit in there and put in there to wait to make all the alterations and they go in and it was very much a committee. It was very much a committee. Yeah.

What do you think about that?

I think I think in a permanent setup was excellent. was very good with good ideas came out of it. And everybody was very friendly, not how to deal with everybody got a knives out. No, Ryan trying to impress everybody. Right, or do you smoke very sensibly. Nobody was trying to do anybody down? No, I think was very constructive. I think he showed him that he was a natural fat that he wasn't singletrack that many thoughts went into it?

John Hargreaves  3:01  
Yes. It worked very well. Yes. There were good films. I mean, they're entertaining film. denninger is a key word really

Jim Shields  3:11  
came out and it'll glow. Which is important. And you go to the cinema today, and so

John Hargreaves  3:17  
you said Spielberg what used to be alien element? Oh, yes. Nearly picture they'd say we'll go and see. That's correct. Yeah.

Jim Shields  3:25  
This is we'll have the voting brothers were another lot more resilient. They were there.

John Hargreaves  3:31  
Yes, that's right.

Jim Shields  3:33  
I mean, I did

leave a very much thought on as in that way. calorie but but the very few of them? Very, very few. Yes.

As a shameless change, because it has changed from our point of view has changed. Because we haven't got the permanent setups anymore. No, they were very used to work very well. Indeed. Everybody's a bit it's a bit it's a bit. It's a bit doggy at the moment.

John Hargreaves  4:09  
What do you think about this? I know there's much more freedom as to how you can depict a scene today. And film people don't really care really. I mean, I know the press make a big thing about it about Oh, you can't take your grandmother by Iran to see this film. But the fact remains they have gone a little too far on this violence side and the language bit than the language that I find it embarrassing. I

Jim Shields  4:35  
mean, I'm not a prude. But I feel very I feel very, I feel for other members of the audience, perhaps and I'm used to it. And I understand that you go as you feel which is perfectly normal. Could entertainment, but just reflecting has to be one FNS it doesn't seem any reason

Unknown Speaker  4:55  
for it. No.

Jim Shields  4:57  
I don't really like what can we do

John Hargreaves  4:58  
about this? This filmmakers?

Jim Shields  5:00  
Well, I suppose I suppose it's really

John Hargreaves  5:04  
mean, are you prepared to put the job on the line and say to the director in the theatre, I think we should drop.

Jim Shields  5:12  
What we do some that we do sometimes. And I always remember working on film, and we had to do an airline version, or the American, a new or detective and it's quite in character using language he used to delete all that because of the other airline. Yeah. And then sell me to who did we did a separate meeting? With a picture one hell? Yes. And that somebody who was used to it and we were not approved anymore? No, I said he's used to it, etc. For further pictures and all those word swear words were unnecessary. No unnecessary example. I don't think I don't think is necessary is wait. You see, they say what is in character? He's absolutely character. That's how he would speak. But we would we allow

John Hargreaves  6:06  
many people to understand that it can do he can make contact with these people, it seems you know why they bother you? Yeah, Trump.

Jim Shields  6:14  
You can only go so far. Yeah, he's like in the theatre, you say? I think the music's too loud. It's killing funny.

Unknown Speaker  6:22  
No, no, I

Jim Shields  6:23  
like it that way. I like it that way. And that's as far as you go. Oh, Rector has an artistic licence. You can only go so far. With something you you don't agree with. That doesn't necessarily mean you're right, either. We're not fighting to get my effects in it. It's Just Music and other effects on agree if it works, to me if it works. You can't you can only go so far. Yes. I know you've he goes. Yeah, we normally like go in and premix. And that's how I think it should be. Normally without the music with the music isn't ready. And when the director comes in, he has a nice something. We change fares and how he likes it. That's how I thought he should be here. And that's it. That's all I can do. Yeah, so I made my point. If he does like it here, I want to change it up for the balance. Yes. Yes, what he wants and therefore, I must be wrong. Yeah. That's the position where you start? No doubt you've come across it. Probably be pushing the money bit, saying that you've got to get off here because you've got no, you're overspending, and they say, Well, I'm sorry. But we're going to do it. That's the end of it. Yes. And that's it, put it here. Sometimes Listen, depends with the word director before. Basically.

John Hargreaves  7:52  
Personally, there are some good stories about we need the cash to run develop them so that when you go into production, you know what you're doing. There's lots of problems arise when you don't prepare a film, right? It's the money well spent is the brain. Secondly, what are you going to do with a director is to get your thoughts in sync with each other so that the end result on the screen you all got the same idea in mind as to what you want to see up there. No, you say I'd say well, I'm going to put a winding staircase coming down. We did this. We bonded a film at Elstree no name's Jim sorry. A few years ago, three, four years ago, we bonded I feel my dad's tree and the sets were fantastic You know, when you've looked at them on a big stage they're marked how they were painting the painters were around the back of a column you know, and there was an old friend of ours mutual friend said if we see around there is that there's no film camera goes back to there. You forget this film. Another one how arrived you arrived here now I'm good we have saved on the building. And that said if all extraneous stuff have been left out and pushed on one side, you've probably picked up 50,000 there we're spending a third of a million pounds on those sets and what could have saved at least 50,000 pounds on one of them. Now this someone obviously hadn't agreed with all concern and that's what they wanted to see. They are directing gone ahead and design a call on time scenarios now it's the same thing. They all put that the this that's what we're gonna do. And then with the direct guns on the floor, he puts this camera here and he shoots the scene the anything Why have we done all this? What have we got four walls? Yeah.

Jim Shields  9:54  
It's a bit like the character walks into the room. There's a tear either side of the fireplace, the front Two and a half seconds you never see it again, because you're cutting a strip, close your articulation because the personalised demo

John Hargreaves  10:06  
was the dollar. Yeah. It's a great. It's a great industry. And you've got to laugh at me. Yes, I did an article for The Hollywood Reporter and Betty wood print it. She said, you said something in there that wasn't acceptable. What was it Betty do tell me has heard from others to apologise wasn't meant no, she said, was too much. She said it was fun. You said it was fun. Says the roller roller rolling out this fall. It's a privilege. It's a privilege to work in this niche. Fox nada, as you say, you got a lot of bankers that you know that it's fun. Otherwise, it's probably right. You know, doing that it is performed then what are we doing?

Jim Shields  10:56  
are we waiting for Labour Law, when you work in a field working in a gallery rooms even and everybody gets home? You have enough and the job and everything gets done beautifully. But if you have an undercount. It just it doesn't work nearly as well. No, no, you show me a happy, happy unit. You had a good picture. I fear the

John Hargreaves  11:17  
90% of the weather. Well, he could go on talking all day to get this report.

Jim Shields  11:27  
I'm taking this up to a meeting tomorrow local, take yours, either to others, and then I can't do any more now

John Hargreaves  11:35  
to be busy. Well, if I have slipped names in there, I shouldn't do that you hadn't done the I brought in?

Jim Shields  11:43  
You haven't at all? No, I

John Hargreaves  11:44  
haven't. Not that that worries me is just that

Jim Shields  11:47  
he won't be using that content. I didn't bring a little thing for you to sell. And actually on this little slip, we're going to be using the it's only the EDC History Project is what

John Hargreaves  12:01  
people are getting on with I mean, where does it stand now this history project

Jim Shields  12:05  
way in as much as interviewing people should be interviewed in the business. And then it's taken, somebody does a transcript of this. And then all that information is filed. It's nice, I think that is I think, because people are is it's either when when we will permanent at nanofilms we will split up I don't remember where people went and what they did. And it was a lot of nobody can say what everybody did and what and where they went. And it gives people a background to the industry. I mean, as you mentioned to me, because there's an idea of what happened, what the business was like. And I think it's been a very, very good idea. I

John Hargreaves  12:50  
people have said that it was a factory but alright, it might have been if it was a fun factory. It was a fun fact nothing wrong is that if you bring factory ideas into a did the production of anything you something something good something good there somewhere it can't all be bad.

Jim Shields  13:09  
And I think that I think probably issues were in our industry at work is we're now a Japanese factory working over here. Well, maybe good everybody's friendly. Oh, isn't that big tutorial. And everybody's in the same campaign and everybody sees everybody in the film industry we

John Hargreaves  13:31  
could learn a lot you see even when I went over to Fox the first time everybody wandered into the canteen there and he was standing in line with a train next to you know an artist or the camera man or direct one thing I

Unknown Speaker  13:48  
agree they haven't got their bars

John Hargreaves  13:50  
that's an excellent thing. Yeah. I could never understand their line. People just to spend a lunch or drinking alcohol could never understand that whatsoever. certainly wasn't allowed, as you rightly said in Metro none of them over there now we're now in touch with Paramount now.

Jim Shields  14:10  
If you work with American he does not smell and visual. Or Dom I've noticed and react.

John Hargreaves  14:17  
We've got examples of this in this studio where there's been trouble on film but I can tell you Oh yeah. Well, we could only find silver with some seed money to throw about

Unknown Speaker  14:35  
Yes. develop projects

John Hargreaves  14:37  
which you could then take to a distributor or seller we know you want product they all need an insatiable appetite fulfilled worldwide. Absolutely. No doubt about it. I mean, a very narrow mind because he's got to be made face

Jim Shields  14:51  
when I was related to me when I've got a good idea but So my stuff about

John Hargreaves  15:04  
you is going to be different than

Jim Shields  15:06  
he's got to be. So this is this is a pretty good It's pretty good. Pretty original. Nicely written but I wrote in the other night, too. I thought that was too wordy.

John Hargreaves  15:17  
Yeah. That they will take it over.

Jim Shields  15:22  
The third way I've had in the last week is I'll move on to rewriting. I still find me writing then. Because there's there's too much donovani spending action as well. Mr. Darla, too much don't make the picture long as it's not the other way. Round up my frame of law.

John Hargreaves  15:39  
Yes. All the extra stuff. They're linear, so they don't understand it. Why did the plot that begins

Jim Shields  15:47  
with it. It's just a matter I mean, I'll go through and cross is this is an instance where the writer is in love with his own words. Yeah, I think he would end with a squeeze in hard to say. Mind should go Yes. See,

John Hargreaves  16:06  
but your other hat on. Even though you are the writer. Use your powers. The director will shorten it.

Jim Shields  16:21  
Thank you very much indeed. JOHN.