Keith Ewart

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Keith Ewart Side 1

Roy Fowler  0:00  
The ACTT History Project. Subject is Keith Ewart. The date is the 18th of April, 1989 right. Here we go, Keith, first things first. Usually ask when and where one was born,

Keith Ewart  0:15  
London, 10th of June, 1926

Roy Fowler  0:20  
Chiswick in Chiswick with four, right? Your early activities weren't in what we call this business. Were they? Was? Was there any connection, any family connection?

Keith Ewart  0:33  
None at all. No. My father was a merchant, an importer, and I suppose, had it not been for the war and all the rest of it, I wouldn't have been in it either. So he was dead, and I had to earn a living. So it's case of crime or photography, because I became a photographer. Do you

Roy Fowler  0:55  
remember what your early leanings were as a school? Oh, boy, as young,

Keith Ewart  1:02  
I remember one report that said, may we ask prey, what is it intended that this boy should be? And I also remember when I had a dark when I was at a day school, I had later went to boarding school. When I had a day school, I had a dark come under the stairs, where I used to play with photography, and I was suggested on my report that I stop all that nonsense and get on with my homework. But on the whole, I didn't have any, particularly no academic leanings. I'm not, I'm not. It sounds like some sort of force. Mostly, I'm not very bright and I'm not very quick, but I'm very dogged.

Roy Fowler  1:45  
Well, in most people's eyes, you've developed, at least, into a sort of renaissance man with so many aptitudes and interests. Well,

Keith Ewart  1:53  
I've got very few, but they're all channeled. I mean, the only I've got music and photography, really, admittedly, I fly. But that is, that is, that is the odd man out. But on the whole, I just channeled music and photography into this. But these are creative gifts, after all. Well, they're gifts. Yes, I mean, everything's a gift. It's not mine boiled it.

Roy Fowler  2:17  
But they weren't particularly noticeable as a general, I

Keith Ewart  2:20  
don't know Noel instrument, oh yes, music was, I suppose, yes. But, I mean, I was typical lazy child, didn't practice and played all the things that you shouldn't play and none of the things you should. So I, I don't think even that. I mean, nobody would have thought I was going to finish off with Barbara Wally. I don't think, no, I don't think. I don't think I was a noticeable child. You'll have to ask others, but I don't think I was. Well, it's

Roy Fowler  2:47  
interesting how you remember it were the parental pressures to no

Keith Ewart  2:51  
pressure follow, no youngest child. The youngest child is always boy, to pressure, all the pressures coming. By the time they get to the fourth one, they've given up, indulged and spoiled? Well, yes, spoiled by My dear mother, of course, and and nobody knew, precious No, never did a day's work in my life.

Roy Fowler  3:15  
The origins are, it would seem to me, very comfortable English middle class.

Keith Ewart  3:20  
Yes, I would Yes, No is the answer, but very stormy, the comfortable is the bit the very stormy English middle class, yes. Volatile, volatile father, yes, really? Oh, violent fellow, yes. Very energetic, but

Roy Fowler  3:42  
well, you mean physically violent. Well,

Keith Ewart  3:46  
he didn't believe in the modern upbringing of children. But no, I mean, he never beat my mother up for anything, but he was what the kids would get a clout. Well, the kids would get the occasional clout, most certainly, and if he, if he wanted a quiet world with you, shut the windows.

Roy Fowler  4:10  
I suppose that, again, was part of the times. Yes. I mean,

Keith Ewart  4:15  
it's the thing that, when you look back at things like that, they were different world. It was, you know, this was in between the wars. And so it was a different world. I mean, he died in 1942 or three. And so my memories of him were well between the wars, when, when every middle per class family had hired help. You know, he

Unknown Speaker  4:38  
died young, or he was 56

Unknown Speaker  4:44  
so him gone, so

Unknown Speaker  4:45  
that

Keith Ewart  4:46  
he's, he had a heart of gold. I mean, he was just one of these mixtures. You see, if we wanted a saxophone, we had a saxophone. He was upstairs. We didn't practice it. But anything that could be that might. Come in useful. We could have so we were indulged. Certainly we were privileged a benevolent despot. Yes, I think that's right, yes, certainly the family wasn't run on democratic lines. Is that a trait? Do you think perhaps you've inherited? No, I don't think so. No. I mean, that would be the obvious conclusion, but I'm most unlike him, and I'm probably much more like my mother. I don't know, I don't think so. He certainly didn't run his firm anywhere like the way I've won mine. And I mean again, looking on different times, but I mean Mr. Monk and Mr. Painter called each other Mr. Monk and Mr. Painter in the same office for 30 years those days, wouldn't believe it possible, you know,

Roy Fowler  5:46  
yes, and a coat of dress. Oh,

Keith Ewart  5:49  
well, if my father, alive today, turn this grave, I mean, if he took a look at me in my go to words or garbages tailor and even that's a bit too good for me. So, yes, certainly, certainly, we never saw I don't think I ever saw my father without a tie. Now my son, I never see him in the ties. He hasn't got one. Has borrowed one for me for funerals. It's

Roy Fowler  6:16  
an article of faith. It's gone. You'd more or less completed your education when, oh yes, well,

Keith Ewart  6:25  
yes, I completed my education because, because, I mean, maybe, had he been alive, somebody might have said I had to go to university. But of course, the war came at a very good time for me. You see the war in 19 I was born, 1926 so I was and you couldn't join the army until you were 17 and nine months. 13, yes, so when war broke out, I was 13, almost. But then I went to boarding school that same year, and there I was until I left there at 17 and three months, I did one term of what was known then as high as certificate, when it was decided by one and all, including my father, interestingly enough, that there seemed no purpose in my remaining there, because I wasn't benefiting, and it was costing him probably a lot of money. And so I went and worked in a garage, and I learned more in the garage, certainly in six months than I had in school in six years? Was it a flash school that you went to moment? It was a Jesuit College? Oh, yes, no, no, no, a convert. Catholic mother and a convert, and not altogether a deathbed conversion, but a convert Catholic father, who I never saw in church until almost his dying day. Yes, certainly So, but certainly a Catholic upbringing. Yes, certainly, certainly yes.

Unknown Speaker  7:47  
Did that environment have any effect on you? Well, yeah.

Keith Ewart  7:50  
I mean, you know, give me a boy before the age of seven and all the rest of it. So, yes, I can't promise you I believe in God, but I am practicing Catholic i I've kept it up. Yes, does it? I think that it probably affects the way I conduct business and working. I think it had an effect on that. I mean, I've got

Unknown Speaker  8:14  
your attitudes toward people

Keith Ewart  8:15  
sending out invoices. Yes. I mean, you know that any question of the thing, I'll tear it up before I'll have a row. I just, you know, I think, yes, I, you know, it's not, it's again, it's not something I can give myself any credit for. It's just a defect in manufacture that, when that's planted into so deep that you are, you try to be straight. You know, I don't suppose one is all time try.

Roy Fowler  8:47  
So the family obviously was formative in your care, on your Oh

Keith Ewart  8:52  
yes, oh yes. I mean, I was, I was already, I was probably 18 when my father died. I was already in the army. And, in fact, I was already commissioned. I went into a regiment called the royal Horse Guards. Now that was a mistake, and it wasn't a very good soldier, but my brother went into it, and sort of, I never questioned it, you know, he was only that I went to that's where I was going to go. I should have joined the Royal Air Force, I expect. But all the Navy, I mean, gone to sea, but, and I would have still been in it. I guess if I joined the Navy, if they hadn't thrown me out, I'd be in it to this day. I would have been much nicer life than making commercials.

Unknown Speaker  9:30  
Were you eager to join the service during

Keith Ewart  9:32  
the war? Eager, oh yes, good gracious. Was it a duty that to No, not a duty? No, join the army. Good grace. Get away from the excitement. Yes, despite what, bullets were flying. No, what we never thought of bullets flying, did we? I mean, in any case, by the time I got there, they'd stopped the war. Had gone to Japan and I went to Germany. So nobody ever shot at me. I'm glad. No, no, no, no, if they did. They missed. No. I mean, and honestly, when you're young, you don't think about all that do I did

Keith Ewart  10:12  
in armored cars. Imagine the joy of playing around with armored cars. Wonderful things. It's a train set in there.

Roy Fowler  10:18  
Had there been an OTC at school? Yes, yes. So that gave you an entree. Did it

Keith Ewart  10:24  
not really, because my interest the OTC was the band I played the flute When did my first term at school. You weren't allowed to join the band in your first term and but I they had no drum major at the Welsh gardens, a drum major, Osborne. I learned more about music from Osborne. He was one of the world's natural teachers, certainly from the music master who charming as he was, was useless teacher. And so I started playing the flute. I was about four foot high. I started playing the flute, and he taught me drums, military style. Drums and bugle was the third choice, which was only for calls. We didn't play tunes on the PC thing. And by the end of the second term, you were allowed to join the band. In the second term, they didn't really know what to do with me, and they made me, they invented a new rank and made me band master. So I did all my school distractions were to do with the OTC and the band and drum and flute arrangements and so on, under the tutelage of that sort of drum major, Osborne, who was a saint one that he was also the groundsman and typical old Welsh garden wonderful,

Roy Fowler  11:40  
looking back on the this is somebody relevant, obviously, to making commercials, but looking back to the schooling of those days was, was it as brutal as legend? Now has it?

Keith Ewart  11:51  
I suppose it's, it's all to do with attitude. It's certainly when I got there, it probably was. But within the first year, the one of the key jays, Jesuits, the one responsible for the sort of general order and discipline of the space, changed to a man called nassen, who I still see. He's now 86 or something ridiculous, and I still see him. He's the worst. He's the only person I know is the worst chess player that I am hopeless because I'm impetuous and I'm a gambler, and he's even worse. So it's great joy. I see him go half a dozen times a year. He still goes strong, and when he came, he swept out all that. He wouldn't have people saying tradition and all that. He swept it all out. He wouldn't have brutality. So I on the whole was the first generation that didn't experience anything like that. No, no, but it probably had been before then. Oh, and the Jays went past beating the boys. But then the public school, everybody gets beaten,

Speaker 2  12:56  
though one hopes there was no pleasure in it for them. Well, no one,

Unknown Speaker  13:01  
one don't think. One doesn't wonder.

Unknown Speaker  13:06  
I'll say two. That's

Unknown Speaker  13:07  
up to them. I mean, you know you can't,

Roy Fowler  13:12  
indeed, if the Jays gave you anything, was it a moral rigor or an intellectual rigor? No, I

Keith Ewart  13:20  
haven't got any intellectual rigor, or really a model rigor. I don't think, I think if they gave me anything, it was the ability to say, Why, really? Why? Yes, why is the only thing that we had a that's always

Roy Fowler  13:35  
interesting, if I can, but in in a religious context, because why is very seldom

Keith Ewart  13:39  
allowed. Ah, well, no, why? We've got to say why. But, of course, the lucky thing in religious context is there isn't an answer, because there's nothing you can nobody can give you an answer. Why we don't know, why we don't know so, so, but no, why? I mean even the chap, the academic man, who, I mean, they are interesting. You see, the J is a max maligned race. But as I was leaving school, the man responsible for the for the academic standards in the school who obviously, I had never been his treasure, and he said, I don't know what will happen to you after the army said, finish up in the BBC. I should think. And there you are. You see, they did actually know their boys. And as it happened, I didn't finish up in the BBC, but I might I haven't finished yet. What was in his name. No wonder was, I don't know, probably radio producing that sort of thing. No, I meant

Roy Fowler  14:38  
by that. Was it kind of the fates of younger sons or Second Sons in those days? Oh no,

Keith Ewart  14:45  
no, no. I was not far back as that. Oh no, no, no. And I was, I wasn't as far back. That was a couple of generations before, I think the cloth or the Foreign Office. No, we didn't have that. No, I think that. I mean, I think that he. Saw I wasn't without energy. It's just that I wouldn't have the energy channeled by others. In other words, if I was told by anybody had to be channeled into a game of cricket, I might be found in a covered place practicing or playing the clarinet. I wouldn't call it, but I was never idling, I mean, and so he knew that this kind of energy is going to come in somewhere. He just couldn't see where. And it was pretty, pretty good of him, I think, to be able to say, Finish up in broadcasting something like that, because that's what else could happen to me. Really,

Unknown Speaker  15:34  
did he see? He was naturally bolsh, oh, no,

Keith Ewart  15:37  
oh, I wasn't well, I wasn't at all bossy. I mean, and you can't, you don't have to be bossy with the Jays, you see, because as long as they know you're not up to mischief, they don't interfere. So the fact that actually, I wasn't on a run or playing rugby football, but they knew I was in the music room or wherever it may be. And so as long, oh no, no, no, you don't have to be bossy with Jay that was never bossy. No. Mischief

Roy Fowler  16:02  
for them was what moral dangers or

Keith Ewart  16:06  
Well, I don't know. I suppose again, it's very, very difficult. I suppose it depends on the nature of child. I mean, there are some people. I don't think it's just children, but I think it's probably been two of me all my life, even maybe to this day, who really aren't aware of a great deal that's going on around them. They're occupied, dare I say, preoccupied with their own affairs, and the fact that, in the meantime, 14 boys have been expelled for having an orgy and then setting the college on fire, I wouldn't even remember it, let alone have noticed it. I really so what they what the Jays would find offensive, or Mr. I really don't know. I mean, as long as it didn't hit me, I've never been a very social animal. In that sense, I've never really taken too much interest in what other people are up to, because I've had enough trouble keeping myself going. I think probably so I can't answer the question. I didn't notice any great, yeah, I suppose one or two boys disappeared rather early on, but not absolutely certain. Their fathers didn't take them away. No idea.

Unknown Speaker  17:33  
Very tolerant days, yes, because

Keith Ewart  17:38  
he'd a mutual. We should do it with him here, because he's musical. They are very funny, very tolerant, and you know, and in every way you know, they've got a sense he was worldly, I believe, yeah, well, yes, I think that's quite right, that you know that one this earth, and it's no good put anywhere else on this earth. That's where we are. We have to manage, you know, we don't know how long for that's a difficulty. If we knew how long for life would be much easier. We could order our effects with no idea, you and I might drop dead as we leave the room, or this machine might blow up or, sorry, but that's, that's what makes them so. I mean, I did get, probably I was in the last generation of one or two of the old Hellfire preachers, but they were a wonderful act. I mean, nobody really thought the father lesson always does it much for an idea. There's no man called Father fitzger. Now, Father Fitz James was the old generation of hellfire preachers, sort of retired at the moment, but every now and again, They dusted him off, and he gave one of his Hellfire servants his real interest in life was feeding the wild birds. And he used to have this wet bread crumbs in his pocket. And of course, when parents came, he used to shake their hand this wet bread. And he used to be his hat was covered in bird lime, as they call it. And father minister, who was a very gentle big chap called Father Tempest. Funny how I remember some of these things. Always complained that in wartime, bread, you know, who can't do that? Father fitzger And father minister, was walking up in town outside the main building, reading his office, as they do every day, and the shower of bread came out from top window and he carved up. He said, Father fitzger, I've told you before, it's wartime and we can't do anything about throwing. And Father fitzger, wasn't me. Nothing with me. He said it was I saw you. He said that case was nothing more to be said. But anyway, this is quite a diversion. But anyway, Father Fitz James was when he wasn't throwing bread at the birds, one of the real old style of hellfire. Well, of course, now you have them in people like Ian Paisley. Of course, it's still there, but we don't on the hand hold have them in the Catholic church anymore. Perhaps it's a pity, because it it was a good turn. I mean, it got people into the church, and we're boys. Object. Can you imagine the terrible stories of that this fellow invented, but I won't burden you with his sound, but it's very fun here.

Roy Fowler  20:10  
Full on balance, it sounds happy. Oh,

Keith Ewart  20:13  
very happy. Oh, I was delighted to get back to school. Oh, of course, I never did a stroke of work. Every day was sunny. Can't remember a nasty day there and winds of beautiful grounds, music, Oh God, what a lovely life. It might just not been that bad since, except the bit making commercials, but I mean nightmare

Roy Fowler  20:35  
Well, let's not anticipate the nightmares. Did you have going into the army? Was it what was called a good time? Oh, yeah. Well, yes,

Keith Ewart  20:45  
the answer the question is, as my old German friend says, yes, and no, yes, going in, I went into the guard stepper in Caterham. We all went into but being royal Horse Guards, all the others were six foot four, and I was five foot four, and then on to purp, onto perbright, and then on to Blackdown, and then on to Sandhurst, the usual run, I think, last six months, and then six months I seem to remember. So I can't remember, but anyway, then commissioned, and then to Germany. And I think after about a year or so in Germany. I don't remember the time scale. I knew I'd had enough. And interestingly enough, when I joined the Army in a fit of fervor, if you have a fit of fervor, I signed on as a regular soldier. So even though I went in as a conscript, as it were, I signed on the same day as Ronnie Bowlby, who's now the Bishop of somewhere or other. I met him, but he was with me in the army from the first day to the last, and I met him at the place where we signed on. But after a while, when my group was due to come out, because I had a group number, I went to the colonel, and I said, Oh no. The Colonel called me up and said I was next on the list for Knightsbridge. And by then, I was rather disenchanted about the army, and my father was dead, and I wasn't very keen on going to Knightsbridge. And so I said to the colonel, well, you know, I really don't want to stay there. Oh, well, you're signed on your regular soldiers. You can't just come and go. Oh, well, the colonel told me, when I signed on that if I changed my mind when the group went, I would say, Oh, well, have it passed? Go to Brussels for a few days and see how so I went to Brussels, I took the squadron Jeep and off I went to Brussels, and got back after a few days and said, Well, I've had a very present few days. I'm even more convinced that I shouldn't be a soldier, and he let me out tiny that I think he wasn't sorry to see me go. I don't think I was a wonderful officer, but then my feeling is that we were all too young to be officers. Ridiculous. Really, the benefit now of seeing the I mean, I couldn't have known anything hopeless. So anyway, there you are. That was, I was out of the army. That was my soldier soldiering career, but it was three years or something. I had

Unknown Speaker  23:04  
quite a long time. You were commissioned at what the age of 18

Unknown Speaker  23:08  
must have been 18,

Roy Fowler  23:10  
for those who've known you in later life, it seems a bit surprising that you could accept other people's discipline, especially military discipline.

Keith Ewart  23:19  
Well, yes, but it's not difficult in the army, and one even enjoyed it. And I mean, I agree, I always give the example. Since that I've I've only ever worked myself, except in the army. I didn't own the army, but otherwise, I've only worked myself. But it isn't strange, actually, it's marvelous. Of course, you don't have to think. You don't have to think you just do as you're told, you know. And of course, there's no easier life than a very disciplined regime where you do as you're bloody well told. Wonderful. But even so, it seems no good if you as long as they are going to pay the wages. It seems contradictory in terms of your character. Well, I think it becomes contradictory. Only when, if the telephone doesn't ring today, you don't eat tomorrow. Now, it's your judgment. You're pitching against starvation, but that's where the in the army, you're not doing. There's no starvation. You're going to get your lunch, you're going to get your tea. It's all coming up. You do as you told. You'll get to lunch, you'll get your tea, you'll get your pay. That's very good. Now, once you come out and become a freelance I don't think you can be obedient to all comers, because your whole reputation is on everything that you write, everything you every picture you take. So yes, I have had a few story relationships in my my my freelance career, because even now we're freelance of television today, we don't eat tomorrow. So that's but that's different, because there I've got to back my judgment, because nobody else is interested in me eating tomorrow. In the case of the army, they were interested. They knew they wanted me to eat tomorrow,

Roy Fowler  24:53  
true enough. But you said earlier that the the Jesuit college taught you to ask why I.

Keith Ewart  25:00  
I am the army. Don't ask why in the army? No, but that's that's the contradiction. Yes, no, no, no, you can't ask why in the army. No. God help you. Well, yes, I mean, when I was at Caterham, I often told story. It's perfectly true. The officer used to go around and the sergeant major following him used to shout out to the sergeant, I don't want to any complaints this enormous, great canteen, I only ever heard Caterham. Heard one man complain, and his complaint, the nature complaint was he held a mouse up by the tail and pulled it out of the suit. And he was had up. Frivolous complaint, what's your name? What's your name? Frivolous complaint. So you did, you didn't ask for Hyatt cater.

Roy Fowler  25:48  
I vaguely remember someone. They're totally

Keith Ewart  25:49  
fair. I have to say, the brigade of guards, the everything from the train soldier and you stand, stand to attention, the train soldier to the sergeants and the sergeant they're extremely fair. I mean, their whole tradition is a fairness. So they there's no or when I was there, there was no bullying. I mean, they shout, they ran you round, and they gave you a very hard time. But they were extremely fair. It's very interesting. The I suppose it's all changed now, but I mean, those days, the discipline in the brigade of guards is very, very interesting and tough. I mean, I would say it's tough. Yes. I mean, when you're young, I suppose nothing so tough I did. Suppose I could do it today, but I mean some things I couldn't even do then. I mean, this thing exercise of holding the end of the rifle in those days, Mark seven, or whatever it was called, and just literally picking it up like this. Well, I might do it once. And there's this fellow, you know, say, I don't see. What's the problems

Unknown Speaker  26:50  
you were wearing in post war Germany? Yes,

Keith Ewart  26:52  
post war Germany is cologne, and then the royal Valley, very beautiful, right?

Unknown Speaker  27:00  
This was immediately

Keith Ewart  27:01  
post war. Yes, very well they were. I mean, now I would find it very depressing. I really probably can safely say I was totally unaware of the poverty of the people. That's true.

Roy Fowler  27:15  
Did you give a damn in terms of because, again, it's I can't seeliness of adolescence, or they would

Keith Ewart  27:23  
I think that. I can't say what it was because, but at worst, and likely at truth, it was this general unawareness I've always had of what's going on around me. So probably concerned with my own activities and maybe my own survival, and really what those children were doing, looking in the dustbins. I didn't give a second thought to I don't suppose, which is just as well, because I couldn't have done anything about it. No, but that's maybe a very selfish attitude. But actually, I couldn't have done anything about it. It's a difficult burden to carry. Luckily I luckily I didn't carry any burden. I've never carried any burdens, I'm glad to say. But again, it's a matter of temperament, isn't it?

Roy Fowler  28:17  
Yes, yes, but these are obvious stages on in on your development.

Keith Ewart  28:22  
But I don't think you see, I don't think we change all that much. I think we've got certain defective manufacturing this business. What we learn from our mistakes? Ooh, we make same mistake. They've got different hats on, but the same old mistake over and over again.

Roy Fowler  28:37  
So is one of the keys to your character, self protectiveness. Would you say I don't

Keith Ewart  28:41  
know, I don't know. No, I don't think so. Because I think, I don't think so. I've never thought about it. I would have thought to be self protective. You'd have to be in some way frightened of people or something. And if you're not aware of them, you're not frightened of them. So I don't think that's case. I think that in a day by day situation, again, I have to leap forward just to make a commercial or taking a picture. There's a great element of that self then absolute on a very local In other words, not on a life span level, but on a very local level of your taking a picture, and that fellow wants you to take it in a way that you feel you won't do it as well. Now you do protect yourself. Yes, I agree there is an enormous element, but that's on a very local level, yes, but yes, then enormous Yes.

Roy Fowler  29:35  
That's an interesting point and distinction to make, and you would say then that it is self protection rather than artistic integrity.

Keith Ewart  29:44  
Yes, of course it is. There's no artistic I mean, I great art. I mean, I think that that there may be an element of artistic integrity about,

Unknown Speaker  29:57  
I don't know. It's very hard to say. I mean. Yeah, there are some I'm leaping right ahead now to now, if you like.

Keith Ewart  30:11  
I'd like to do Young Person's Guide. I know exactly that's very open, how it should be done. I know exactly how it should be done. I know somebody else who's doing it. You mean young persons go to the office? Yes, I know somebody else who's doing it, yes. And I know they're doing it wrong. Yes. I know why they're doing it and why they're doing it wrong for money. Keith,

Roy Fowler  30:34  
for the sake of clarity, we're talking now what of an interpretation, a visual? Yes,

Keith Ewart  30:39  
we're talking about a television program, television version, and they're doing it wrong for they're doing it wrong. They probably know they're doing it wrong. They probably don't care. They're doing it wrong. They're doing it for the money now that I could never do now in that case, one of the very rare cases where there's a choice, where I can see that there are two ways of doing. I mean, you could hang it, if you like, on the simple thing, especially a young person's guide. It's more complicated. But if you want a very simple version of it, a Young Person's Guide has got a commentator. He speaks for 90 seconds. He has no important role and should be well left out. And in fact, usually is left out if you're doing it commercially. You they did a film 40 years ago, and they where they got Danny Kaye to do that, and now this person wants Paul McCartney. I couldn't do that, although that's the way to make it commercially more successful. No. So there, you might say that's artistic integrity, but it's the only example I can think of. I think that on the whole, whether it's a photograph or a commercial, for that matter, or program. What little I've had to do with programs. If you see it a certain way, you can't do it any other way. Not it's no choice. You can't do it any other way. If I see that girl sitting there, that's where I want to take her, I can't suddenly take her. If the fellow says, it's very nice back view. It's very good examples. Typical thing that would happen if it were an advertising thing, somebody would save that picture. Look, it's wonderful back view. And I hate tricks, and I say, but it's a gimmick back view, and I couldn't do it. I mean, I just couldn't do it, not even for money. So you may say that's our ticket, artistic integrity. It may just be sheer arrogance, I really don't know so and it because I know this chap that's standing there, is the sort that's going to see it there. I can see him walking behind it. Maybe. Then the self protection starts that I make sure that he doesn't say it, that he doesn't dare say it, because I don't want to meet that one head on.

Roy Fowler  33:02  
It's the craft. Then that's more important to you.

Keith Ewart  33:04  
Yes, I suppose Yes, it's and, and, I mean, yes, if you've got an eye for a photograph of whatever it may be, you've got to play it your own eye. You can't actually do it. Suddenly, you can't, you can't see through other people's eyes. So what one is tempted to say, and has been known to say to him is, look, I'll take this role away. Now, there's the camera and everything. Turn around, do what you like, thinking to yourself as a pity is doing it with my lighting. You know, pity I can't switch all light, because actually, if he wants to do it, he should learn to do the whole thing and then develop and print his own print. So yes,

Roy Fowler  33:42  
I'm sure we'll get into all that much. Yes. I mean,

Keith Ewart  33:44  
we've left ahead when we come. I find it difficult going in this sequence of Jordan, because to me, it life has gone in this way, not in this way.

Roy Fowler  33:55  
Let me not impose any structure, providing we make sure we cover the various areas. Well, I have two questions. No one question, I think, left about the army, what your final rank was? Left, errand, right? At least you didn't keep that in your civilian life, they don't refer to you.

Keith Ewart  34:18  
I believe that, what is it when you're a regular soldier, you keep it and you're allowed to keep it one rank more or less than you finished. I can't remember which it is, but it's not the custom anymore, funnily enough, is it? Except with with somebody who's been colonel of his regiment, something like that, can usually will keep the colonel.

Roy Fowler  34:39  
I think people do like to try it on anyway. I know one of my neighbors keeps commander.

Keith Ewart  34:47  
I suppose our end is rather well. I mean, may well be if he did his 30 years all the rest, and he's well,

Unknown Speaker  34:58  
you came out then in what? Yeah, roughly 47 Well,

Keith Ewart  35:03  
I always get this wrong. I went in in 40 March, 44

Unknown Speaker  35:10  
only, approx 5060, where we are, 4546

Keith Ewart  35:14  
Well, seven, I suppose, I suppose it was seven. Now, I never remember if it was then October, 46 or October, 47 more likely to be 47 Yes, it would have been 47 Yes.

Roy Fowler  35:28  
So out into the era of austerity. Ah,

Keith Ewart  35:32  
no, no, I escaped the austerity. Because what happened? And first of all, in Germany, we had no austerity. We lived off the patent land. We got wonderful Moselle wine at two, she leaves a bottle, which probably would now be two pounds a bottle, but would still be cheap. Then the family, not knowing what to do with me, and me saying I wanted to be a photographer, and so on so forth, decided to send me to Uncle Walter, who was my father's brother, and who lived in America, New York. So I went straight from war torn Germany, where I was certainly aware of some of the austerity. I mean, the buildings were you wouldn't I don't know if you ever saw anywhere like Aachen or cologne, did you just afterwards?

Unknown Speaker  36:21  
Later? No, no, no, 15.

Keith Ewart  36:22  
Well, you couldn't believe it. There weren't two bricks standing on each other, except that they're built up as a mound. The place was down. I mean, it just went down the street. It was down. So to go from there in November 47 I suppose it was over to New York. I mean, it all started with landing in Shannon and having a POA steak on a steak. I mean, I'd not seen anything like that even in Germany, because the meat wasn't all that common. And then, funnily enough, it was a constellation, nice opening constellation. We went. The pilot decided to take the southern route because the windows winds on the North were too strong. He made a mistake, and we landed suddenly the Azores, which wasn't the scheduled stop meant to be gander. He then decided he'd have to go for Gander, and he took off. And after six hours, he told us he had to go back. And 10 hours after takeoff, we spent another night again in Santa Maria in the Azores, and he finally made New York rather late. It shows that in those days, it's quite interesting. Even the four engine constantly beautiful airplane, they were at the limit of their range going that way, right? You know, they couldn't, they couldn't make and that's having landed at Shannon to refuel. So it wasn't now we cheerfully think of going there non stop and all this, no anyway, so I landed in New York, and Uncle Walter was made of different stuff. Now I have to

Keith Ewart  38:00  
Uncle Walter was a timber merchant, tropical, hard woods, but he hated he was very able, obviously, commercially very able. And hated it. Hated his work. Always hated it. Got headaches. Had

Unknown Speaker  38:23  
you been sent there

Keith Ewart  38:23  
to the states? No, no, because it is a little complicated. And now I'll have to go back to the very beginning, just a little bit. My father was born in Vienna, but he came over to England to school. So he went to a public school in England. His father, who had sort of lost child in pretensions, wanted to send the first son to England. That was my father, the next one to Paris, the next one to but, you know, and so it went on. Now, by the time it got to Uncle Walter, who was the youngest, they'd given up that. It's what I said about being the youngest son. And so none of that happened. He went off, as far as I know, when he was a young man, to work in a timber mill in Romania, Europe. At that time was small, and he became the manager of it, I think, at 21 and owned it at 24 or something. But he was obviously very capable then, with the threat of Hitler, the Russians and all the less, he went to America. It's a long story and a film, if anybody wanted to make it. I mean, it really is an interesting story, but I won't burden anybody with it now. And so he finished up in the timber business in America, and his for uh, philosophy was all right if you want to be a photographer, as long as you don't want to eat lobster be a photographer, it's much better to work at something you enjoy all your life, as long as you are prepared to accept the standards that go with the trade. And if you want to be a photographer, then he had this friend, walty. Dray, who was a banker and shipper by trade, I think, but was a very keen amateur photographer. And I went to Walt, worked for Walter for six months. Now, Walter was a totally un commercial photographer, but he was an artist. No question. He was a, you're going to turn it over or something shortly? Yeah, he was a natural artist, no question about it. I learned a lot from it, and he was a wonderful printer, wonderful dark room worker. And I learned an awful lot from Water Street, right? But I only stayed there six months.

Roy Fowler  40:34  
So I'm asking, I'm guessing he was not working in advertising.

Keith Ewart  40:38  
No, no, not at all. No, every now and again, what, I think once while I was there, or maybe twice, he did a shot for advertising of some description. I think he would have liked to have done so, but he didn't have the disciplines for it at all. And what?

Unknown Speaker  40:56  
What area did he operate in? Oh, he did

Keith Ewart  41:00  
beautiful heads, girls head, beautiful, some beauty. Heads, wonderful portrait. Well, no, they did them for himself, really, just as a hobby and dancing pictures, wonderful dancing pictures of Martha Graham and Jose lean on these people. Wonderful dancing pictures. What were his outlets? Were they None. No. His door, his door, but he, he used to print what I thought was big. It was slightly smaller than this, but I thought it was big at the time. And he used to print on a very difficult paper to work. It's called, they don't make it anymore. Dassonville, charcoal, black, heavily textured paper, very thick. And he used to do a couple of 100 prints in a day, trying to get it the way he wanted it. And printed a very difficult way, which I do too now, which was always with a piece of paper with a hole in the middle, scattering the light where he wanted it. Of course, no print two prints the same. And he was a master printer, no doubt about him, just God. Gift of God. Did he make any money? Well, I suppose, hung over from his banking and shipping, but he came to a sticky end, I think, I mean, after I left there, I think he didn't die well to do at all. I think it was rather pathetic, actually. But he was the last of the big suspenders that did out about it. So what did you learn there? From, well, I learned to I learned the technical aspect. Well, no, you see, he was extraordinary thing at the end of the day, if he'd been taking something or other, he said, you use the cameras, Keith, you take something and so on so forth. So, yes, he went away, and I put a couple of tulips in the pot and whatever. And I learned that his greatest mastery was over the way he disguised the difficulties that when you watched him, you thought, well, he doesn't do anything. Any fool can do that. I mean, didn't do anything. And then suddenly you're there, confronted with it, you suddenly thought what he do about that? Well, of course, he gone by then. And so once you did it and started printing it, you suddenly discovered what it was that he was really doing. And I think that, if anything, it was, I mean, I ran before I could walk. I never could walk. And same happened to me when I went over to film. Funnily enough, I never could walk. I started by running, and he taught me to run.

Roy Fowler  43:30  
I think I will run the legend one. Oh no, there's enough on a minute or two. Your interest was in photography, but your knowledge, what relatively was was was restricted, always. Now, what then interested you more was it the actual technique of taking the thing or processing it and printing it all of the same bag, and

Keith Ewart  43:58  
it was all I could do. Don't know if it particularly interested me, it's just that that that was, what else can I do? You know, shoot Germans. That's what I was trained to shoot. Germans play a flute in military band style, or God given gift, God given eye, to some extent, for photography,

Unknown Speaker  44:19  
importing hardwood was, oh no, that was,

Keith Ewart  44:23  
I think that even I think if I'd said to my uncle, look, let me go to tag of guardian and sort these people out in West Africa, I think he would have been delighted. But he certainly didn't encourage it. And I never occurred to me. It must have occurred to him, didn't occur to me, you're living in Manhattan? Are you? No, he was living in Larchmont, Westchester, right? Yes. I

Roy Fowler  44:46  
was wondering what your recollections of New York City at that time were? Well,

Keith Ewart  44:51  
I walked every street of it. I think Walter strait didn't pay me. He didn't think it was necessary. He's paid me since I. To say, God, rest his soul. But he didn't pay me a penny at the time. He worked for all hours known to man, I used to deliver. 

End of Side 1

Side 2

Roy Fowler  0:03  
I better overlap that just slightly. You had to make deliveries to

Keith Ewart  0:05  
the village. No, his studio was what he called in the village street that was Lower East Side. Well, it's not the village at all. And I tell you something, the the only way to get the coda Chrome process was by taking it to Grand Central, and they had a special service to Rochester. And so I was on that ferry three times a day, I think. And just as I got back on a hot day in the subway with the smell of garlic, he had another lot to take and so on. And I certainly resented it at the time, and I think Uncle water did too a little, but let sleeping dogs lie. But of course, the truth is that I've been paid for it tenfold since. So I have no right to present, but only natural also, of course, of the problem that you've been the army and you're now 22 or whatever it is, 23 I don't know, you suddenly going back to being a child, as it were. You don't take to it very easily, you see. So I did resent it, and in fact, I, after six months, I left there, but I Yes, New York, I I don't. I didn't think of it as a glamorous place at all. I mean, it was, it was the squash of the tube and the Times Square shuttle to 42nd street shuttle, and then the commuter train out to Larchmont and walking from the station to my uncle's rather humble and pleasant apartment, and then back to the station next morning. So it was a grind, with some compensation from from watching water. But again, I absorbed it. Somehow. I absorbed quite a lot there.

Roy Fowler  1:55  
Did you have any interest outside of the studio? No, so you were going to the theater. No,

Keith Ewart  2:01  
nothing. No. My uncle was a my uncle would have been very pleased to have to have seen me do it, but he himself was going to stay in the apartment listening to the radio. And my aunt could have gone on, got on better with her, I think probably, but she might have liked it. But I, I didn't know. I never went to a concert there. I never went to the office. I think he would have been very pleased had I done so. All

Roy Fowler  2:25  
I did was work. Did you always stay with the family, or did you eventually have your own place?

Keith Ewart  2:29  
No, no, no, no. Never got that far. No, no. Left well before, I wouldn't have seen any possibility to get my own walty wouldn't have paid me anything. So I would have had set up as a photographer in New York, and whether I would have ever succeeded at that, who knows, were

Roy Fowler  2:44  
you aware of the commercial field and the not really, magazines? Yes, magazines,

Keith Ewart  2:49  
yes, Harpers Bazaar and so on, yes, but not, not really. I didn't know what it was made of. I didn't when I started working in IT, funnily enough. I mean, I never, I never, kind of researched anything I did properly. If I had, I probably would have been frightened out of doing it. I just sort of blindly did it and learned rather afterwards. What a mammoth I mean, rather like building this. I mean, I didn't want to leave ahead, but what a ridiculous thing to do. Anybody who'd researched it properly would never built this never a bad thing to do. It remains a mad thing to do, but, but I never same thing being a photographer, whatever. But anyway, I left, I left, and still didn't know what I was going to do.

Roy Fowler  3:34  
Who were the masters then, as you well, probably Penn

Keith Ewart  3:37  
and Avedon. You know. I mean, still, horse and Palouse man called Palus, a Romanian, marvelous color. Oh and Rawlings, of course, was the first American, probably commercial, really commercial, but the first American to make him to become a millionaire to being a photographer. Rawlings, enormously successful color. But Penn and Avedon were the kind of pen on Vogue and Avedon on half as bazaar were probably the two stars

Unknown Speaker  4:09  
whom you admired,

Keith Ewart  4:11  
yes, but not till later, not till I got back to England, having spent again 18 months in Kenya in the meantime. So at that time, I might have looked at, I can't remember exactly how much I looked at fashion magazines when I was there. Maybe I did. I can't remember.

Roy Fowler  4:36  
These were the beginning days of television. There, anymore, there,

Keith Ewart  4:40  
yes, I don't know if when I was there, then Walter must have had television, yes, yes, but certainly I had no if he had television, then it's interesting. I don't remember, but if he had television when I was. Stay with them, then for the six months, I'm not aware of the commercials, so I obviously had no interest in that. They were very rudimentary. Well, you say, so we won't go into all that. I think they

Roy Fowler  5:13  
were, I was, I came in a bit later, in 49 that I would I think

Keith Ewart  5:16  
that if they the American commercials still appear to us to be very rudimentary, because, after all, they don't run on the air all the things we see at the festivals. On the other hand, they do have the knack of shifting goods and services than ours. You don't know whether it's for beer or the bank.

Roy Fowler  5:33  
I was thinking in terms of technique, not advertising. Well, yes, that's that is,

Unknown Speaker  5:39  
which is irrelevant,

Roy Fowler  5:42  
right? Okay, well, it might be a little early to get on to that, because I'm sure it will be long before we get on to your Advent into commercials. You were six months in New

Keith Ewart  5:57  
York, six months to then I had a girlfriend in Kenya, and I left New York for Kenya with no idea. I thought I'd do a BF dot over there or something. And so I went and I the girlfriend lived in Nakuru, which is about 100 miles from Nairobi, if I remember rightly. And so I got myself somewhere in the coup and set up as the local photographer. And then, by accident, I met up with a man who I still see, although he's getting on now, as they say, called Peter Coble, who was a entrepreneur, I suppose. But he had a he came along to the local country club with an African band. They had a do on. He came along and I said, Do you mind if I play with the band? Because I played cloonet By then, and had done right away through the army. No play with the band. He said, So anyways, I played with the band. And they were five or six Africans. They certainly gifted, but untutored. And I sort of gathered them together a bit that evening, I seem to remember. And he said, Come to Nairobi. What are you doing here? So I said, Why don't the girlfriends left me and played photography. Don't do that. Come to Nairobi and run the band. I went to Nairobi, and he found me digs, and I ran his band for him. And that went on for a year. Yes, and that was quite interesting. I had two I played with his band at one place, and I had another little trio, which I played at another place. And I went from one to the other like the Pied Piper of Hamlin, taking all the customers with me when I could. And that was a very nice year. Not good for the health, I don't think. But

Roy Fowler  8:02  
were these colonial white mischief days? Well,

Keith Ewart  8:05  
I don't know about mischievous Yes. I mean, certainly colonial. It was before Yahoo. So yes, it was certainly Kenya, them as a colony. Yes, yes. And

Roy Fowler  8:17  
this is what you're part of, the planters society. Are you? Well, no,

Keith Ewart  8:21  
and not really. I mean, the Nairobi, the club I played in, I suppose the hotel I played in, the other contract probably was planters down for the for the day or for the week or for the show. The club was local bank managers or get his I don't know what they all did. Yes, I suppose it was, but it was very late hours. I mean, 10 till six in the morning sort of thing. Very late night shift

Roy Fowler  8:53  
looking back. I mean, what? What sort of memories survive from from those days? Was it a touch of the evening wars?

Keith Ewart  8:59  
Or, I don't know because I'm illiterate, so I can't help you there at all. Well,

Roy Fowler  9:04  
I was thinking of, I mentioned white mischief before, which was so named because of evening wars, black mischief.

Keith Ewart  9:09  
I didn't know that she I don't know either. It's no good all, all literary allegory wasted on me. I totally illiterate, so you'll have to rephrase

Unknown Speaker  9:24  
the question, um, well, one thing that

Roy Fowler  9:27  
was about the great Lord Erwin scandal in the early 40s. Do you remember? And

Keith Ewart  9:34  
yes, if that's the thing that comes in, what's the name that lady pilot who wrote a book. They're also a wonderful woman with voices,

Roy Fowler  9:43  
you know, who mean? And I noticed her name, yes.

Keith Ewart  9:45  
Well, now there you go. But anyway, I it came in her story somewhere, that incident, Diana, someone, I think it'll come to me in a moment, too. But anyway, I don't know. I mean, I don't know of put it another way, if there. Any scandals. Rather, as at school, I wouldn't have noticed. I just wouldn't have I wasn't aware of them. I was there to play, and we played, you know, I quite enjoyed the life, but I could see that it was ruinous to health. But, I mean, it was, it was very pleasant. It was

Roy Fowler  10:15  
less the scandals I was interested in, more the kind of inward looking social life. I don't

Keith Ewart  10:20  
know. The only social life I knew was getting to club at 10 and playing till six in the morning, and what, what people did the rest of their time. I have no idea at all, because I didn't I was asleep the rest of the time.

Roy Fowler  10:34  
We don't look to you then to be the social historian of Kenya.

Unknown Speaker  10:41  
Light on that at all,

Unknown Speaker  10:42  
the next stage then, so

Keith Ewart  10:44  
I left the so next stage was that mother at home who always thought that I was Rembrandt wanted me home, I think, and she, she always rescued pictures from the dustbin when I was printing and everything reject prints. And she sent some. She never she didn't know any photographers. She found Cecil Beaton and posted them to Cecil Beaton and said, My son wants to be a photographer. What will he do? And Cecil Beaton sent them on to the studio manager of vogue at that time, Patrick Matthews, who you may remember because later he ran the guild, right and Patrick Matthews wrote a letter. Now, the annoying thing is that I have a file with all these letters in them, but in the last three months, I've mislaid it, and I can't remember, have I given it to a journalist, or what I've done with it? It's a pity, because I have the letter that he wrote to my mother, which was extremely sensible, and it was he has to come home. He can't do anything from there. He mustn't go and work for anybody else. He must set up his own small studio somehow, and I'm sure that he'll find work with one magazine or another until the but it was a very, very sensible letter Patrick Matthews wrote to her. And so one went another, by now, squabbling with Peter coma, or the fellow in the band, although I say I see him now every time he comes home and lifetime things, and also realizing that I couldn't go on my lifelong playing clarinet in the middle of the night, and also aware of the fact that the whole political situation there could not be maintained. And in any case, I didn't particularly want to be part of it. And so November 49 I came home and I managed to get the use of a studio in very nice studio, converted squash court in Shepherd's market called studio five. It must have gone by now, and when I was there, they let me use the place at night, sort of thing, and the dark rooms, they were extremely kind, I must say, a wonderful studio. And I happened to meet popping up a bar, I suppose, a chap who called himself Carl NATO, although somebody said he changed the name from that, he was certainly sharp enough, and he had taken under his wing a young designer called Joy Ricardo. All these people have disappeared without trace, but she'd made some clothes, and obviously rather, he rather fancied the idea that her whole collection could be photographed for nothing by this idiot who was looking for anything to take. Now, it's interesting that I hadn't seen fashion photography done. I had no contact with it at all. I had when I was in Kenya, I know looked at the odd fashion magazine as it came out there, probably as a kind of give myself a taste of New York, if you like, or whatever it may be. But anyway, I got hold of a model who, or girl who wanted to be a model called Elizabeth Hamilton, who was quite successful in the end, and I took all joy Ricardos collection one night. And I don't I must have taken some trouble with it, but anyway, that's what got me going, because I I kept taking things to Vogue, but Patrick Matthews suggestions, John Parsons, who was their art director, and he never liked me or the pictures, but he kept saying, Okay, you're doing very well. Come back and so on. But I mean, you can't feed the butcher with that. I then went to Harpers Bazaar, and they said, which wasn't true, that they never worked with photographers who weren't under contract. Was completely untrue, because I didn't work with them for 10 years and never had a contract with anybody in my life. On the other hand, one of their magazines was good housekeeping, and I left it for good housekeeping. See with the sergeant at the door. He said, Oh, you know, don't worry about and I, when I went back for them, to cut a long story short, they were lost and couldn't find a thing. And then I was summoned up the art director, a man called Mike director, a man called Michael Griffiths, who's retired now, and he had the prints all around the wall in layout form and so on. And from then on, I did all their fashion and beauty until I took drinking commercials and be just wonderful. And he was a wonderful art director, the perfect art director I've met well three or four in my whole career. But he was certainly the first. He was like Drum Major Osborne, like natural teacher, without pushing it at all. I mean, he used to do these layouts, very funny thing, his figures of girls and things, just in pencil and everything. And I used to use them to walk across the white paper on the tissue paper. It allowed me to get across the girl and do something, get back again without getting the floor dirty. But always when I finished printing, I took no notes of them at all, and when I finished printing them, lo and behold, everything actually matched the layout. His influence was so Noel, wonderful, wonderful. So anyway, there we are. I was off. Then I worked half bazaar and fantasy fan all that group, I did one job for Vogue. It wasn't very good, and I never wanted to do another.

Speaker 2  16:24  
You make it sound very easy, yes, acceptance, very easy.

Keith Ewart  16:30  
Yes. Everything, everything's been easy, right? Everything, everything, everything, in terms of policy, has been there have been some nasty days, but, but all in principle, everything, I'm right, because I've never done days work in my life. I mean, it has been very easy. Yes, I I should feel guilty about it, but I don't, because I couldn't help it. I mean, I didn't make it easy. It's just, if anything, I tried to make it difficult, but it happened,

Roy Fowler  16:57  
but generally, not typical for you, yes, but not, not generally in the

Keith Ewart  17:00  
business. So, yes, I think for, I don't suppose it was all that hard for, I can't class myself with Norman Parkins, but I don't suppose he found it all that difficult either. If you see what I mean, you know, Ridley Scott didn't find it very difficult when he was my designers, you know, and he left me and, you know, he'd probably found it quite easy as well. You know, I think that some people, some people, are lucky, and the lucky people find it easy looking

Roy Fowler  17:25  
back from 1989 to what 40 years ago, what are your impressions, your memories, of the style, the nature, the character of the business and the people who run it in those days. And when I say the business, I mean generally what, you know,

Keith Ewart  17:43  
yes, well, I mean, I left studio five and over my own little studio, which was the place? Well, no, first of all, I went to working the place with about six other seven, other photographers. It was owned by a man called Alex Sterling, who was a crook, even on tape recorder, he was a crook. And but the photographers there were extremely good, Dick Dormer, Henry Clark, I mean, the best. And they all dissolved away one by one as they were cheated. And I did too. And opened a little studio in the city, Studios, which was my own. I then went back to Glebe place, a sterling soul tenant. And then I bought green place and chucked him out, in fact. But the people that one worked with on the magazines and so on, it wasn't at all dirty or back biting. I mean, it was everybody very nice, very, very nice. It was a nice, clean business, actually, always, attrition between me and the fashion editor.

Roy Fowler  18:47  
Standards, standards. What I don't mean standards, standard of work. Oh, very high. Oh,

Keith Ewart  18:56  
always aspiring to to, even with mundane clothes and all the rest of always trying to produce something as good as pen or AVID yes, oh yes, oh yes. They

Roy Fowler  19:06  
were the leaders, and yes they were, they were emulated. Were they yes? Absolutely

Keith Ewart  19:10  
yes by me too. Of course, yes, not depends. Until I met Penn. The

Unknown Speaker  19:15  
influence is essentially transatlantic. Oh yes,

Keith Ewart  19:18  
it was yes. I think that's absolutely true. Yes, yes,

Unknown Speaker  19:22  
Paris, at all. Paris, well,

Keith Ewart  19:24  
I don't know if they I think that all the clothes, but I don't think the photography that Paris was all English and American photographers, not French photographers, funny enough. And the only famous French photographers were the reporters, ones like Cartier Bresson. So there may have been French fashion photographers, but I think if there were any, they went to America. I mean, the truth is that if photographers were that good at that time, they went to America. So, but I don't know of any French. There must have been some, but I can't remember any, right,

Roy Fowler  19:56  
when did you move into green place? Which, well,

Keith Ewart  19:58  
I moved in of. First of all, in 19 summer, 1950 so I was in studio five for about six or seven months, and then I stayed there, I suppose, for a year or so. I then moved out for two years, I think, to Rosetti studios, and went back there in about 53 Rosetti

Roy Fowler  20:19  
studios the world in flood Street, Chelsea, that's right. I knew I've seen them, yes,

Keith Ewart  20:25  
and I lived in one of them and worked in another. And it was the one that I was introduced to. It through Patrick, Matthew, because Penn had used it on when he did the London cries series, and it had very good daylight. Pen would have liked it. I wish I'd met him already, because it might have been, I would have taken a different turn in my photography in that studio, and I would have been the better for it. But anyway, it I didn't make it. I was very lazy. You know, I spent most of the time listening to the grandfather and playing clown. I run. I never went out for work. I mean, I don't, you know, I don't know how I got work, actually, but it kind of came in. But anyway, I then went back to Glee place, and I bought it in, well, I think I bought a 39 year lease in 1954 for 6700 pounds, with six pounds a year ground rent.

Speaker 3  21:18  
Not bad, not bad. So you've lost it now? No,

Keith Ewart  21:21  
do you still have it? No, there's nine years to go on the lease, but since then, I bought the free hope.

Roy Fowler  21:26  
That's a very considerable asset. Yes, and may I ask, what is used? No, is it? Is it resonance? No, we'll see

Keith Ewart  21:34  
it, not today, but we'll see it. And you'll see it's a it's a residence upstairs, because my daughter is living there for a moment, and the studio is a, I've still got a studio there with my still cameras and dark rooms and so on, lovely building. See it again, because it's now, it's very sweet, but it's a little bit of a storeroom for a moment, because I'm gradually drifting things out of here that I know I'm going to have to take with me. And who was daft enough to give up the free Hall, the church Commission, the church commissioners were not drafted. They wanted to give up the free. Yes, yes. And they did well at the free. They want to tear down Arthur Kings Road at this stage. Well, I've heard about that. Yes. I've been asked. I get all these appeals through the door. On the whole I ignore them. I think that I Well, it's just

Roy Fowler  22:15  
around the corner from the top of the street. Is it all fashion? Or have you yet moved into product photography, advertising? Oh

Keith Ewart  22:24  
yes, but certainly in the first year or two, I would have moved into that. Certainly Alex Sterling, who was my agent, therefore on the third probably it was all fashion in vasett Studios. When I moved back to oh no, because I was already dealing with the advertising agencies. So I'd started doing some commercial photography, but mainly beauty and so on. Difficult things to print, experimental things, particularly for J Walter Thompson, but it was a lot of fashion for Ashley happened at the time, who was the editor at Crawford, and a lot of fashion, Danny Mac and these sort of things, and gradually drifting into part. But I never, when I was photographer, I never did the product as we know them, the Maxwell House and the fairy liquid and the whatever. Nothing to do with this. What were you doing? Cosmetics, yes. Cosmetics, yes. Toilet, soap, not flakes, yes.

Roy Fowler  23:31  
What would be another area that I mean, did you perceive yourself as having very specific I didn't

Keith Ewart  23:37  
perceive myself as anything. I never perceived myself, not

Roy Fowler  23:41  
even then. So things that you thought you did better than no, no, I

Keith Ewart  23:45  
did what I was invited to do. Oh, I suppose if I couldn't, if, if somebody asked me to go off, no, if they'd asked me to go off and photograph Rolls Royce cars, I probably would have taken it on, even in the studio, but I wouldn't have been competent to do it. So probably, I, probably it's me standing on so probably I would have taken on more comments. Actually, food, no, funnily enough, not at all. The big joke on good housekeeping is we'll get Keith to do the food. And so the funny thing is that once we started commercials, everybody thought of me as a food specialist, but food was the joke. The idea that Keith would do the food, that was the greatest joke in history with Michael Griffith. What was the problem? Well, because I was fashion photographer, you don't do the food. If you're fashion photographer,

Unknown Speaker  24:33  
you didn't get the chance to do it. No, he

Keith Ewart  24:35  
wouldn't have given me the food. He didn't think I'd be able to do it.

Roy Fowler  24:41  
What the contacts were with, with the art directors, the magazine, yes. How about the agencies, the advertising agencies. Certain

Keith Ewart  24:47  
amount there, because one you once your pictures come into harbors bazaar. Then the agency art directors tend to read those magazines and see them. And so they find out, you know, they get their, their buying. And to find out who you are, they ring the magazine, find out where you are, and they ask you in just meet an art director and so on. And you, you know it goes on. So once you are appearing in print, you do get called upon learning agencies, looking back

Roy Fowler  25:13  
again, what, how do you rate the the art directors and the advertising agencies? Then, then,

Keith Ewart  25:18  
well, wonderful. I mean, people like George Butler, J will Thompson, Ashley, having done at Crawfords, Arpad Alpha even. I mean, oh, the monster, Shelly Shelton, the monster, monstrous man. But, yes, of course, very good. I don't know what they're like now, but then they were very good.

Roy Fowler  25:44  
What did they bring to it? I mean, were they? They weren't photographers, monkey

Keith Ewart  25:49  
they weren't, no, no, no, they weren't. They what they did. George Butler, best example, they they could assess what you would do well, and then let you do it. I can give two examples, one very quick and one a bit slower. The very quick one was with George Butler doing aquas Goon out in with the lady who later become came Baron s teasent. Oh, yes,

Unknown Speaker  26:24  
on the way, was she on her way?

Keith Ewart  26:27  
And out we went to hollyport, to Smith stables, and we started doing some macro scotums. And George Butler, very rarely came with us, but he came with us. And I mean, even today, when I go and see the old boy in derbyshi, I can't call him George. He keeps saying He really must not call him Mr. Butler. I can't do it Mr. Butler. But anyway, George Butler, ra, there he was, and I took a few rolls of two quarters squares was, then still is, and said, What do you think? Mr. Butler, and he gave the answer of the perfect art director, what do you think? And number two, Colin Millward, one of the greatest art directors in my experience in television. And I was taking something for mackerson, which was a disaster, and it was not going well, a still short. This is No, oh, right. It was a commercial, but it wasn't going, you know, you lit my own commercial and so on. And he was in the corner writing his nails down to the juice. And I couldn't, I couldn't, it just didn't look right, you know. And every time I looked at him for inspiration, I thought, God, that's all I need. Anyway, we broke the sticky buns, and Pam power, as she became went off to get the sticky buns, and we had a break. And you know, I used to work with one lamp always, because I didn't know how to used to and so I said, Well, look, let's turn the whole damn thing round. Let's pull the lamp the other side and come in again, Harry, or whatever is there, get them burning right, put the light on. And suddenly, I must say, it did look better. You know, I don't know what it was, but it looked better. And I thought, Oh, thank God for that, because it really had been going extremely badly. I couldn't get it right. And whereas every other art director, or not every other but all bar three, would have been full of suggestions as how to get it right. The only suggestion I got in Collier Warner was is him biting his nails down to the knuckles, and it really did look better. And I turned to him said, Colin, that looks better than this. He said, Yeah, I was waiting for you do that. Never quarreled with him. Never had a round with him.

Roy Fowler  28:46  
Sounds a bit one up, man. It sounds No, I'm

Keith Ewart  28:49  
sure he knew. And I mean, he wouldn't have dad said if he hadn't known that, I knew he knew he was excellent. There were three. Rosie Oxley was one, so Willie Andals was another, and he was the third in my television career, that was it. Those were the three. I didn't meet any others.

Roy Fowler  29:06  
The advertising agencies of the 50s must have been perhaps quaint, rather Edwardian. Oh

Keith Ewart  29:12  
no. Well, I don't think they were. I mean, they were, I think J Walter Thompson was still sort of gentlemen's club to some extent. Yes, true. Maybe it is today. I don't know. I've not been in there for 30 years, and every 20 years, I didn't work for younger and Rubicon. When I was a stills photographer, Crawfords, I did a lot for at the time, but I very rarely went in the building. So I just don't know. I mean, my contact with them was very superficial. I mean, they, you know, out came the fashion girl, or whatever it is, and I did all the pictures, and in they went and they ordered the prints, and I did the prints, and in they went, and in went the bill. And actually, what they were like inside the big except for J will J will Thomas, I got no, much better. And they were probably a little bit of a gentleman's club, but it. Very concerned with the work and the standard of the work, particularly in the art department, by context and the attrition between Harold Stansbury, who was the copy chief, and George Butler, who was the head of the art department. This was when the agency was carved this way, not into groups this way, and that attrition was probably one of the main ingredients of the excellent work was curious attrition between the writers and the art directors, but the.

End of Side 2

Side 3

Unknown Speaker  0:08  
Slide three.

Keith Ewart  0:10  
So we started doing experiments with William Andals, Bill free, all the art directors, some of whom were very hack, and people like Willie were extremely creative, but about the time commercial television started the workshop found itself empty. People were making commercials, but not with me, and because I didn't make any professionally. And so I dropped the line and put it on George Butler's desk. He was away saying, look, there's nothing more for me to do. And I've gone. And then I went in. Michael warhurst had been working with me, and he was a photographer. You know, his father was a photographer before him. His father was the chief tolfand The Times. His brother is a photograph of the times now. And Michael, when we started doing the workshop stuff, Michael worked in the studio with me. Anyway, Michael suggested that I took a reel of stuff out to the agencies, and we tried to get some work. And he booked one in the morning, one in the afternoon, 10 agencies, five days. And in the morning I went into C, J, lytles and a producer whose name stubborn. Escapes me, but it'll come back in a moment. One of the old hands, and he looked at the reel, and he was awful, absolutely awful about it. Couldn't see anything in it. Didn't know what I was doing his office. I must remember his name in a minute. I'm sure he's a member of AC. Be very

Speaker 2  2:01  
curious. Well, no, not if he's working for an advertising agency. Well,

Keith Ewart  2:05  
yes, but since then, he's been I'll find it. I've got it. Let me just ask.

Unknown Speaker  2:11  
Okay.

Keith Ewart  2:14  
Anyway, the afternoon, I rang Michael, said, Look, I can't do this. It's absolutely hopeless. I mean, the man, you know, it's like going to another planet. And Michael said, Look, yeah, I'll cancel them all, but I can't cancel this afternoon. You've got to do this afternoons, and then we'll cancel the others. And All right, don't have to go back to stills or whatever you want. Whatever you want to do. And the afternoon was young and Rubicon, and they started showing it. And then they said, Would you mind waiting a minute? We've got to go and get somebody. And I wait a minute. They went to get somebody. And that was Dennis Orton. And credit to him, although he put a lot of nails in my coffin later on, but he did. He was Noel Jay Ward Thompson man, of course, he was an art director. J war Thompson, as a youngster, he was thrown out. They didn't like him, which was wrong, because he was very slick. I mean, he wasn't one of my list of 50 great art directors, but he was very slick. He was a very good commercial art director. He recognized something in it, and that meant that, straight away, he the atmosphere that was totally different. And he, through him, I started working, and so I did make the other appointments, after all. And got going, making commercials.

Roy Fowler  3:32  
Couple of questions, was the commercial station now on the air? Yes, still

Keith Ewart  3:36  
the leader. I was a yes. I was a year, nine months a year late, right? Okay,

Unknown Speaker  3:41  
you're very

Keith Ewart  3:41  
kind. Thank you very much indeed. I was late. Yes, everybody was there already, and I wasn't looking all that lovely money, but that's not what I wrote it on. I know I've written it on the back of something here because I saw it only the other day. Ray Elton,

Unknown Speaker  4:00  
oh, good God. Oh, yes, there was one other

Keith Ewart  4:03  
I have to say, and that was in George Butler's office in J Walter Thompson, and they had a director in charge of television called Michael Patmore. And Michael Patmore, when George Butler went out of the office for two minutes, took me to one side, and said, Take a tip from me. He said, I'd stay well clear from all this television if I were you. There's a man who meant, well,

Roy Fowler  4:33  
well, let's try and get the flavor of the times, because I wasn't here then I was in the States. But from what I know of that period when commercial television started up. It was indeed all the dead beats and the hacks from radio and BP pictures. That's great man who went pouring into the agency production so really as well, just to ask the question. That's what I know of the period, you were quite unique in approaching it from an advertising point of view, rather than a squared off, locked off film point of view.

Keith Ewart  5:07  
First of all, that's true. But secondly, and this is where the industry went wrong, because the industry actually shouldn't have accepted. Me, what they did have that was valuable, but unfortunately, was badly managed. Typical English disease. It's bad management. Nothing wrong with workers. Workers will play what's it called, play the system. Don't blame anybody for playing the system, but it's the management that has to manage, and what they had was ranks path, a guild worldwide, Anglo, Scottish, Pearl and Dean. Well, Pearl and Dean, not so much because they were wedded to the cinema, but they had organizations completely ready, equipped, supported, financially, well, based, and so on. And what should have happened is that somebody should have said to me, Look, we can't possibly we like your stuff, but we can't use somebody in a back room in Chelsea. Now we've given your name to all seven of those. One of you is going to one of them will offer you a bloody good deal. Go out there and see which, because we want to work with established companies, but on the other hand, we need to use talented people like Goon self and whatever it is. And then there would have been, would have a structure would have remained, where production companies, where production companies, not production consultants. Now what happened was that, I mean, I probably started the rot in that sense, well, I'll never find it that in letting me in, it was the big nail in the coffin of the whole film establishment in so far as the making of commercials was concerned. Now maybe the mold had to be broken. I don't think so. I don't think that was a good thing. And went through a lot of traumatic times after me, then all the bankruptcies and all the rest of it so on, how healthy it is. Now I cannot tell you. I know one thing, it's very expensive. Now, it never could have got so expensive, but now where the cult of the director is the only cult which is, of course, complete nonsense, should be the cult of the writer. But where the the amount that's paid and so on, which is justified. People can justify it, but it is absolutely outrageous, and it won't go on. It's only possible because the amount of time to be sold is limited. Once we get the 24 stations, or whatever it is and so on, for better or for worse, we will get more of the what did you how did you describe the American commercial earlier on? But anyway, primitive. But I don't use the word privilege.

Speaker 2  8:01  
I think they said rudimentary. Yes, rudimentary, right?

Keith Ewart  8:05  
We will get much more rudimentary work, maybe, but I think we'll also get much more serious work. I mean, it is, you know, thank God I'm out of it. So it's not my affair, but it, it has, it has,

Roy Fowler  8:18  
you say serious. I mean, does it mean you regard so much of the work nowadays as frivolous? Yes,

Keith Ewart  8:23  
I think that George Melly got it right 15 years ago, and he was talking about music, but it's the trivia has supplanted the bedrock, he said. And he's got that right. It has, I mean, I know that it's not designed for me, that it's for a younger audience, and that they perceive things quicker than I do, and all the rest of it. And good, and I don't mind at all, you know? I mean, I just don't do but really it's, it isn't serious. A lot of the stuff you see just isn't serious. And I know it was to take just the best example I can think of. I know I can see what a great idea the Man had who wanted 40 milk carts to tell us about the water privatization, delivering water to your door. I could see just how they arrived at it. But that's out of touch with everybody. And water doesn't come in. I mean, people aren't going to work all that out. Water comes through the tap, and people think that because it comes falls from heaven, that it's their divine right to get it for nothing. What the people were trying to say is that distribution costs money. Yes, they could have said that about oil and coal, that comes from God too. In fact, everything comes from God. Distribution costs the money. You have to dig the coal out. You have to purify the water. The way the story was told was, again, a very clever idea, somebody's very clever idea, which actually had nothing to do with communication, nothing to do with the subject, and laid an egg, any. All could have told them it was going to lay an egg any fool who had his feet on the ground. So anyway, but my views of commercials are not of any interest. I'm out of them for a long, long time. I don't know anybody in them. I see them, and my opinion of them is no more valuable than anybody else's. Well,

Roy Fowler  10:16  
no, I won't accept that, because you have, if nothing else and historical

Keith Ewart  10:21  
that might make my opinion worse, not better. I

Roy Fowler  10:24  
think let's assume it's informed in a way. Listening to

Unknown Speaker  10:28  
Brian Forbes about film,

Roy Fowler  10:32  
I wish you hadn't said that.

Unknown Speaker  10:35  
There are several areas I wish

Keith Ewart  10:36  
I hadn't said it too because I got the box switched on, and I beg of you to go back that two inches.

Speaker 3  10:43  
Nothing libelous or slanderous in that we think Brian Fort Smith absolutely smashing moves. He may well

Keith Ewart  10:49  
do. He may well do it. He's not in a position now to judge the cinema, really, because he, as I am to is yesterday's man,

Roy Fowler  10:56  
right? It's, it's all, it's all changed, yes, but I do think an informed opinion must inevitably have its insights. One still talking about present day.

Keith Ewart  11:07  
You must remember that it's 15 to 20 years since I was making commercials. It's a long time. It's a lifetime ago,

Roy Fowler  11:17  
but it's a very interesting period. It's formative, and no matter what we all were doing, then it's obviously, over the years, had its effect on what's being done today. Now, one of the things today is, what do you think there is a cult of personality? Was, obviously

Keith Ewart  11:33  
there, obviously was, too when I was making them. So the answer to the question is yes, but I don't think what it may have been when I was there too. I mean, I think for for the this, even when I was this, hand on the head, there's only one person that can possibly do this. I mean, it is absolute nonsense, because if that one, my person, isn't there, there's only an, I mean, Ridley Scott's brother actually started doing I mean, and his brother probably would have gone well too. And I believe his son can do it. And in fact, as you know, and I know any child of 10 can do it, although a God given gift is very helpful, if you have either a good eye or good ear, it is very helpful. But all this thing, there's only one person. No, it's always been, I suppose, to some extent. Well, photography has been and maybe filmmaking, I don't know too much, a refuge for the uneducatable. Actually, in many ways, people, you know, I I get letters every day of people, they might even have degrees, but all they tell me about is that they want to make the tea. What qualification the degree is to make the tea? They don't tell me. But, you know, the fact of the matter is that their competitor is somebody who is already making the tea and doesn't have a degree, and he'd be making it three years this time, he moved on to assistant editor or something, and editors, other than in our game videotape, it's a knack which one out of six children might have. I know, two out of six. It's a knack of being able to edit. It doesn't take. I mean, I suppose if they go and see Eisenstein's films or whatever, it might help. But actually, Eisenstein didn't see anybody's films. Either they see it or they don't see it, and putting things together, they very soon see that it for well, either it works or it doesn't work. It's

Roy Fowler  13:20  
moot. I think, I think probably saw intolerance, but anyway, we weren't we better not get on to that. Got a fumble for the question here, there is so much what incompetence and ineptitude and almost a total lack of creativity, as I perceive it today, and it's every day. It's a very incestuous business. Every day is nothing.

Keith Ewart  13:43  
We have no monopoly in any I mean, there wasn't my day and there is now, there always will be, were

Unknown Speaker  13:53  
we not a little more outward looking,

Keith Ewart  13:57  
not much in it is everything you hear, you, I mean, right now, over this dreadful thing at the stadium, and you hear one after the other on the radio giving his views. Somebody's bungled. You know, we're only human beings. Somebody's somebody bumbled or bungled or even been incompetent. They were doing their best. But you know, if, if one had, I even now and you threaten to take away the terraces, and there's an awful fast it's not so easy. It is not so easy. There's, we're only human beings, and it's not so easy. I don't think there's any more incompetence or anything else now than there was before. I think if one has to point a finger. Now it is. It has become outrageously expensive, and everybody appears to be party to the Swindle. In other words, even the client. I mean, I don't know who pays in the end, but this whole idea was, Oh, we're spending 8 million on air time, so I mean 400,000 for the 32nd commercial is really not bad. And as we. Jim Garrett, for whom I have a great deal of time. A little while ago, I see him twice a year or something, and he was just involved in the commercial for million dollars and a million dollars for a commercial. He said it was not unusual. Well, the most we ever got for a commercial, until I went electronic and with other thing was, I think 3500 pounds. Now you can multiply it by any inflationary whatever it's called increment you want to, you won't come to what they're paying. Now, it'd be interesting to know what they're paying. They're making the same very liquid commercials today that we did in 18 110 I'd love to know what they're paying for them, and that would be a very good indicator, because they are identical, so you would have a direct comparison, yes. And then just take the 1100 to 1500 pounds each that I got for mine, and that was even after color, and multiply it by whatever factor you need between 1962 three and 1989 and I wonder if you'll come to the figure, it'll be an interesting thing to do. I agree

Roy Fowler  16:13  
that would be a very interesting comparison. I think there are other aspects of that. One user seemed to remember, it was always said you wouldn't move out of the studio.

Keith Ewart  16:20  
I didn't often, but that was mainly because I was booked every day. And if you're on location, you can't guarantee results, and I made a commercial day every day, so I couldn't if I failed today out there nothing. I did make the odd one outside, but not too many. The other thing

Roy Fowler  16:38  
is that your prices were relatively low, as I remember, cheap because you had everything in house, really everything in house,

Keith Ewart  16:49  
because we never thought we could charge anymore, I suppose. But

Roy Fowler  16:53  
there were reasons for it. You, you had a very neat studio operation with with, you could say

Keith Ewart  16:59  
there were reasons for it. But you know, my experience of the advertising industry, and it might be this industry too, is, it's an emotional business, and you can't there are no reasons for anything. The reason we got 1500 pounds is must have been that we could, we didn't think we could get 2000 we were wrong. We could have got two or even three, I have no doubt. But we didn't know that the justification for charging 1500 must have been a joke. Yeah, 1500 for something done in a day with I mean, it must have been a joke. The fact is, I built this it doesn't

Roy Fowler  17:36  
pay the catering. No, it doesn't pay,

Keith Ewart  17:40  
but it does, but because, it's only because people will pay it. I mean, if it, well, it's rather, as I would say about motor insurance, in a way, we'd all be better off if there was no such thing. First of all, there'd be fewer accidents. Certainly, when we took the car in, the repair would be much cheaper. I mean, they charge 400 pounds because they can get 400 and that, I don't want to sound like Mrs. Thatcher, but market forces do do it. If the market is awash with money and will pay for the Star Man anything, he says, they'd like some help with the justification Declan. They'd like something on paper that justifies it this. And there's more creativity that goes into that then goes into the making of the commercial? Yes,

Roy Fowler  18:22  
I think that's true, and I think where the cult of personality comes into it. Absolutely, I was going to say that you were making mainstream commercials, but you, I don't think, in a sense, were perceived as a mainstream operation. You were, you were regarded, I think, as a maverick, because you were one of the people who were constantly fighting on numbers of crewing, for example. Well,

Keith Ewart  18:43  
I don't think I was fighting two things. First of all, just going back to price a second, I don't think I was regarded as cheap. Then. I think people didn't realize how cheap I was. But I think there were plenty of people doing commercials for 800 when I was doing this 1000 now we'll go about the crewing. I had the 12 on board. It's just that I didn't like them in the studio. And the reason for that was being a photographer, I really couldn't be doing with somebody else looking through the camera and some and I'm surprised in many ways that the film industry does too. I'm surprised that the that lighting, camera, man, the camera operate. There all these, there's this division of labor. I would have thought that there would have been something, in some cases, to be gained from not having this enormous division of labor. Now, the only proof I can give is the that I certainly broke the mold, if nothing else, by accident, no genius, but I was invited to and I did by doing it all myself. And from then on, now it's gone back again to having all those people now. I mean, it's quite interesting, people who left me like Tom Harrison, and he's now lighting director, whatever it is. And comes back five years and. Eight or whatever, when I'm still making commercials, probably. And he shows me this latest epic. And I said, How many people want that? Oh, we had 60 people working on that. 60 people. What do you what do they all do? Oh, no, you couldn't do it the way you do it. I mean, you really need them now. But you look on the screen, and then you look at, I don't know, Macleans or something with elephants, and, God knows what, I can't see the difference. I mean, you know, I am the elephant. Then you've got the it's in the studio. Oh yes, but it wouldn't be possible. They really believe it. And of course, it's not true. There's no reason whatever, why the man who does the lighting on a commercial, I don't know anything about movies, nothing. Yes, but there's no reason on your average commercial when the man who likes it couldn't also shoot it. I mean, no reason at all. And come to think of it, while he's at it, he might as well direct it, then he'll know what to point the camera at. Now the proof is, and I must say, that the ACTT was tolerant enough. Admittedly, I had the heads there, but the proof is that I did do it, and they knew I did it. And credit to Michael warhurst, even today, he's lecturing about how he did all the lighting and so on. As many of you will remember, he was in the office. He was yes, but he was on the call sheet. He was on the call sheet as lighting camera man, and even today, he's now talking about all the prizes he got as lighting. And good luck to him. I don't mind at all. I really don't mind. But rewriting history, yes, and there's been plenty of history rewritten because I see people like Bob Brooks and filford rewriting a lot of history too, about them being the first photographers that this Bob books wasn't even there. He was an art director at Benton and Bowles, and fulfred was assisted to a very good man, olive Nissen. Now, olive Nissen was good, but no they there's a lot of history been and in fact, and it doesn't matter at all, because St Peter at the gates of heaven is no way interested in my commercial. But history has been totally rewritten. Because if you look at anything, it all started with Ridley. It all started and maybe with fulfred and Bob book. But I'm certainly out of the history doesn't matter, and I don't I'm not even sure about it. I mean, you know, it's not where it's not where it is. Doesn't matter, but it is true. If you look, you'll see countless examples.

Roy Fowler  22:28  
We can't rely on st Peter to do an oral history recording. So I think we've got to straighten out some of these things, if you will bear with it. Can we go back now to again the period as it all, was rely

Unknown Speaker  22:41  
on some people. Everything I have to say, but

Roy Fowler  22:44  
God, yeah, the J is speaking after 40 years,

Unknown Speaker  22:49  
55 years. 55

Unknown Speaker  22:50  
years isn't the where are we now? We're about 5656

Unknown Speaker  23:00  
57 and now making commercial couple of questions.

Roy Fowler  23:02  
Briefly about the the workshop thing for J Walter tombstone, they gave you a Bolex and you had the lights. Presumably, yes, these were not conventional motion picture lights. Presumably, no, were they so? So already at the very beginning? Well,

Keith Ewart  23:19  
some extent, well, let's start again. No, they weren't at first, because I had great banks of valves trying to make big walls of soft light, the equivalent of them, probably of the North Light today.

Unknown Speaker  23:32  
Was there any quartz then? Or was no?

Keith Ewart  23:35  
That was much later, no. But these were ordinary bulbs behind in big frames, but we did have a couple of two K's and a couple of pups and so on so forth, I think, more or less conventional. It was much later that I started using the cone, much later because I learned it from pen, because he came over to work with us. What were

Roy Fowler  23:56  
your experiments then? Were they? Oh,

Unknown Speaker  24:00  
any ideas the art director could gather

Unknown Speaker  24:02  
in terms of lighting, no

Keith Ewart  24:06  
making commercials, an art director thought, what a nice thing to do a commercial about Lux and show it all under water. And so you had a picture of a famous statue, and it rippled to a picture of a famous painting, and it rippled to a bar of Lux and this sort of thing, you know, they were experimental ideas. No, not experimental in technique at all. Very primitive in technique, but you're learning what, how to edit. And, well, to be honest, you don't, don't really learn how to edit. I will edit, or you can't edit,

Roy Fowler  24:40  
but, all right, but you've now bought a movie. Ola, yes, we

Keith Ewart  24:44  
well, no, at first, we did it on a projector, belt projector. We took the sound on quarter inch and the picture on projector, we cut the picture up and hang on projector and then laid it back on a magnetic stripe. It's a bit tedious. Do you? Remember what they paid you for all 30 pounds a day

Roy Fowler  25:03  
and materials in addition, yes, yes,

Keith Ewart  25:07  
30 pounds a day was for me in the studio, but we did get stuff there. I remember the most expensive experiment we ever did was for Bernard Guttridge out on location, I think for all of two days for Shell, which J will Thompson was angling for, but didn't have and it cost 210 pounds, two just over 200 pounds. So

Roy Fowler  25:28  
even early on, they were making film presentations.

Keith Ewart  25:32  
Oh yes, before class television started. Yes, you and the bullish got rich. Was good. Burns, gutters was good. Writer, wonderful. I never knew you had to. I mean, he was always done. You had to. Drunk. You had to rob him or Come on, Bernard, you must have it somewhere. Come on, empty your pockets. Let's see it. And then out comes this thing. Oh yes, I have so shell is the first of the petrols, the person, the first of the oils, the fuels, the lubricants. But that is just part of the story. Shell is at the very heart of power, and so on and so forth. And the skits come pouring out. Lovely. Will you read it? Yeah, all right, yes. And so he used to read it, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, you.

Roy Fowler  26:10  
And the bullocks was it? Was it? A doctor water, a rot again, a duck to water? Oh, yes,

Keith Ewart  26:15  
yes, any child can work a movie camera. Well,

Roy Fowler  26:19  
yes, I grant that, but you enjoyed it. I mean, was it suddenly something now opening up? I enjoyed working with some people, not with all, not the people film, whereas before you were looking through your makes no difference. Camera is a box with a lens at the front and the target at the back. Well, true enough. It makes no difference. One one people had been stationary, but now you're moving. Well,

Keith Ewart  26:46  
I didn't move very much. Did I let the subject move a certain amount, but on the whole I stayed still. Okay, found a funny piece of WoW under the table.

Roy Fowler  26:55  
You never know what you find. I suppose I should ask what you thought of the commercials that were going on the air in those early days. I Some were directed by what you know, David Lean Well, yes, and

Keith Ewart  27:15  
then your stock machine. And I'll tell you about a few of those people. I never looked over my shoulder what other people were doing. So I wasn't too aware of what David Lean or anybody else were doing. In any case, I didn't really know cinema much about it. I mean, I heard of Alfred Hitchcock, one of the pleasures and privileges we did have. J Walter Thompson had had a young art director called Sandy McKendrick there, and George Butler had a great deal of respect for him, and he came down to work in the workshop one or two times. But that was very revealing. Sandy McKendrick is a real craftsman. He was an editor at Ealing films, Director. You mean, this is post Ealing for him. Oh yes. Oh really. Oh yes. Oh yes. George Butler going to come and spend the day with the lads in the workshop, Sandy and help them out, this sort of thing. And so he came, and he I worked the camera for him, and did the lighting, if I remember rightly, and he directed. But of course, I did learn an awful lot. One example I've given before, but some insight into the industry. There was a an art director, J Walter Thompson, who was a don't know what, don't know the medical name for his condition. Was he really bitter man in many ways, and there's something that they that they wanted Sandy McKendrick to do for

Keith Ewart  28:46  
can't remember if it was Horlicks or Lux toilet, so it doesn't matter. It's irrelevant. And Harold Stansbury had written the copy, and George Butler and wanted Sandy McKendrick involved, I suppose. And George Butler put Colin Clark on it, who was this bitter, twisted art director who I worked with a great deal,

Unknown Speaker  29:04  
and down they came to the studio, and Sandy McKendrick shot it all, but couldn't be there the next day to edit it. By then, we had

Keith Ewart  29:16  
a proper machine to edit on. I seem to remember. I don't know what it was, but we did. And so Sandy said, Look, ring up in the morning when you've got the rushes, and I'll tell you how to edit it. So I rang him up, and he said, Now, first of all, Scene one, he said, if you run through it, you'll see about Take three. I think it is the girl this and the other, and then she blinks her eye. Now, take it from when she blink her eye to about eight seconds later and she turns her head. Now, have you found that? Yes, fine. There should be about 70. About 70 now Scene two, you'll find that she turns her head into camera to the second take is probably the best, although it might be slightly too long and it. Goes to when she walks out of the door. Whatever it may be, is that nine seconds or eight? Oh, it's nine. So yes, I thought it'd be too long. Well, now try scene three. And so he went through the whole thing every blink and nod. Have turned the head. Now, stitch it together there. I think you'll find it's probably all right. Remember Master, Master, you see wonderful. That was just recorded. He was showing off. Yes, marvelous. Marvelous. Yes, people use that as geography to show you have to be able to show off. I mean, you know, I'd like to be able to show off Wonderful. So anyway, we cut it together and up it went to George Butler. Now, Colin Clark had another way he wanted to edit it, and no appet went to Harold Stansbury, and I said, Look, honestly, Colin, this isn't an art depend experiment. I'm doing. I'm doing what Sandy told me do. He's directed it, and it's going back. So there was a bit of awkwardness next. Morning, Colin Clark rings up. I'm coming down to re edit that Horlicks thing we did yesterday. So I said, Oh, God, that's disappointing. You know, we did it exactly the way Sandy wanted it. And I gathered the way that Harold Stansbury, oh, Harold Stansbury died last night. That's interesting. Now it taught me two things, of course. One was how excellent Sandy McKendree was, and I learned more working with him for three days, as I did later with pen for three days, I think. But I learned more on those two occasions than since I left woolty straight, but also quite a lot about the business. I became suddenly aware that there was a whole layer of activity this business which I hadn't previously experienced, and that's what it was anyway. Yes, so the I don't know what the question was about editing, but it didn't mean that I didn't have a lot to learn about editing if I was talking about Sandy McKendrick standards. But then your commercial in those days didn't need Sarah Bernhard to act it or sandy McKendrick to edit it. It was more direct than that. Whether the commercials have improved now, Sarah Bernhardt is acting in them, and Sandy McKendrick is editing them. I'm not too sure. I'm not certain that they have but the truth is, if I sound arrogant about the business of editing, and any child can edit, any child can edit a one scene commercial.

Roy Fowler  32:36  
Well, yes, I suppose really what I'm fumbling towards is what makes a good commercial. What makes a bad commercial?

Keith Ewart  32:45  
Well, you know what they'll say, they'll tell you, I don't have to tell you, well, but it's good commercial is one that shifts the goods and services and leaves a pleasant flavor in the back of the throat,

Roy Fowler  32:55  
yes, which then is irrelevant to awards or the self satisfaction in the art department? Well,

Keith Ewart  33:01  
because it leaves Creative Group, well, I would say that if it did that, it should leave a great deal of satisfaction in the art department. It might even win an award. But awards are a different matter.

Roy Fowler  33:14  
I'm trying to get the flavor of the times, really, those 50s years you mentioned Ray Elton before. Now, Ray came out of the films. He'd been a camera man and

Keith Ewart  33:25  
all sorts of things. He was head of television at CJ light. Also, that must have

Roy Fowler  33:30  
been an early job for him, because he subsequently went on to run the advertising films division for the rank organizer. Oh did

Keith Ewart  33:37  
he? Oh did he? Oh yes. That was much later. Oh yes, he did, yes,

Roy Fowler  33:42  
I think, generally regarded as one of the most unpleasant men, one of the rudest men.

Keith Ewart  33:48  
Well, I mean, I've said, I said on this very tape that he wasn't all that polite to me, but I'm glad that others, oh

Roy Fowler  33:54  
no. I think everyone who was working then had some kind of experience with Ray Elton. I now, a lot of it, obviously, was the second raters who, given the state of the film industry, were not working in the film industry in any rewarding sense. And they, I

Keith Ewart  34:13  
think there are two kinds of work in this industry. It applies in television too. I mean, it is quite interesting when we show kids around, as we often do, and I get Frank to show them rounds, and then after the hour, whatever they mean to I have them up in here, or in the gallery or upstairs, right? And we talk to them and so on. And they talk about the cameras and something and everything they talk about is activity from the lens backwards. And I said, Well, what about Sir Lawrence? I mean, didn't you watch him? No, they didn't watch him. They were watching and it's the same thing a lot of the film making is to do with quiet everybody. Bells ringing, red lights clap, bang. I never used a clapper in my life, by the way, because I thought was so rude to go in front of somebody's face and make a bang. But you know, it is to do with the ambience of foot. They are doing it for them. And what's on the screen. The best example I know of that MPO, I think they were called built seven enormous stages in the middle of New York City, in a basement somewhere. It was MPO, I can't remember the exact name, enormous. And on one of my visits, I went all around these stages, and I got all the full treatment, the bullshit, the visiting fireman from J Walter Thompson in London. Can you imagine, it all been arranged for wonderful. And at the end, I said, look, it's been wonderful. You know, I've seen all around the Could I just sit quietly in your theater and watch a reel of what you do, just two things? Oh, sure, sure. And I sat down and saw 20 minutes and most hacked commercials you could ever see, all the ambience and so on, compared with anybody visiting me and Glee placed Chelsea while I was working. If they'd had to choose where to go a client or something, he'd never have come to Chelsea. And that place was so professional, and the people and the way they were working, the choreography of those people absolutely wonderful. The clappers and the bells, the product was no good. The films were rotten. What could you say about it? So, I mean, somebody has to think and what one of the dangers, and probably this is as a result of our union structure, whatever it may be, is alternative is the only to wait, way to make every commercial, to have 444, and three, or 333, or whatever it is today. Isn't there another way, in many cases, the way I was doing it, that it's also valid and should also be encouraged and allowed as laws that isn't abused, so that people are doing that just so they don't have to pay the weapons, or whatever it may be. But there must be more ways to set to say that the only way you can, I don't know, paint a canvas or is to sit at this desk in this light with this pen. And so it's absolutely ludicrous. And this format shooting, format film making and television program making, for that matter. And I don't suppose we'll ever get out of it, but it's absolutely wrong, and the one thing that I couldn't do was work before. The main reason was I'd never seen the format. I'd never been in a film studio. In fact, I'll tell you something other than places like MPO. I've never been in a film studio, and come to think of it, other than in Japan once, I've never been in a television studio, so I don't know how they work, which is a blessing, actually, because once you start coming up through that that way, you don't think there's any other way, and that must be nonsense. There must be another way, better way.

Roy Fowler  37:43  
Your anecdote about the kids here and their concern about the ambience, atmosphere, I think that indeed that continues now into the professional area, because the price of commercials, to some extent, is conditioned by the fact that it's marvelous for people to hire Pinewood, for example, and build a build a vast set. Example, yes, yes,

Keith Ewart  38:04  
yes, yes. And to be told, this is where they did James Bond and the client, oh, God, I've just been on the set where they made James Bond. Do you realize that commercials costing us 600,000 pounds? He says to his friend in the club, six? I mean, he spent 400,000 Oh, no. This is

Roy Fowler  38:20  
Jim Garrett's 1 million pound commercials, for example, I'm ill at ease with because they are not performing. There is no earthly reason that a commercial, to advertise a product need cost a million pounds.

Keith Ewart  38:35  
My views are worth what they cost you, which is nothing I cannot. Oh, we don't just want a Man Behind A Desk telling us about it. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know that that's true. I would almost challenge any product on which they're spending a million pounds. Give me a writer of my choice, difficult to find. Start with Johnny Spain, I suppose. But anyway, give me a right of my choice and a man behind a desk and a budget of 5000 pounds, and I should think that the goods and services, we could shift if it was this product really, I think we could beat that epic Yes. Well, I don't think it's necessary either. But then some say, Well, yes, but what when all the commercials are made behind it? Yes, I agree. There'll come a day when you run out of that. But is it ever justifiable to go to do that Gulliver bank thing, which is very expensive, as I gather, which I never did understand, or some of the others which are on at the moment, which I really, I know they're not designed for me, but I just don't understand them. I don't know what it is quite that they're trying to tell me, and they must cost a four. Action and they're edited. I mean, one of the diseases is that the director doesn't edit them anymore. So I'm told that they're taken away to be edited by the agency. I can't see it. I can't see it on the but luckily, I don't have to see it, because I'm out of that. Even before I retire from this, I'm out of that. I was pushed out of that and and in the end, thank God, because I wouldn't be able to cope with it. I mean, I wasn't, I wasn't up to it, then I wouldn't be up to it. Now,

Roy Fowler  40:29  
well, let's talk about Blue place. And now you are well, I made

Keith Ewart  40:36  
another my great decision. But you see, I was convinced that the industry, although they'd pushed rank and path A and all the rest of them, out of the way to make way for Keith Ewert, that the day would come when working in a sculptor studio all hours of night, because Keith, you hurt, doesn't feel like starting till midday because he's ending yesterday. Ending yesterday's commercial till lunch time that people wouldn't put up with that, and sooner or later, that they would want a proper place. Everything optical print, everything, even wet lab, everything properly, professionally down you see, always this awful feeling that perhaps that the amateur can't live forever. So I finally, I took on Chris Richmond. Well, he came over from Canada. He'd been some sort of film student or something in Canada. Want a job. And I said, Well, the only job I've got is to find me a site for a studio. I wonder when was this? Well, it must have been 1959,

Roy Fowler  41:48  
or 60, right? And by this time, you've been operating in a good place for what, four years? Oh,

Keith Ewart  41:53  
well, yes, I've been there as a photographer for long. But making commercial, make commercials since about when the commercial television start, 55 since about 56 right? Yes, okay, and

Roy Fowler  42:03  
just, just so we don't forget about clean place. You said before you, you literally had one booked in a day. Did you

Keith Ewart  42:10  
want one day? Every day? Yes, every day. Prices

Roy Fowler  42:14  
would range from 1500 to downwards, if you notice, was, was? The good

Keith Ewart  42:21  
price. Good. Michael Warner may remember differently, but I seem to remember, even at 1500 that we had to put the date in, I can't remember. I think it certainly we wouldn't give breakdowns. Procter and Gamble insisted on breakdowns, except with me, because I refused to give breakdowns. The reason was I couldn't break anything down because I'd break anything down. I didn't know what to think.

Roy Fowler  42:42  
Had been caught. Did you just say that feels like a yes,

Keith Ewart  42:46  
yes. I mean, Michael did it with a pin. I think I didn't concern myself with it until after Michael had his heart attack, which we'll come to when we get here, because it's quite an important change.

Roy Fowler  42:57  
Was it swings and roundabouts on the commercials? Don't know. Well, you weren't operating at a loss, presumably. Yeah, you made doing one a day. You'd have to make a living. What was the strain on you? What kind of hours were you working? All

Unknown Speaker  43:13  
hours, none of me probably on my wife.

Roy Fowler  43:18  
So what time would you get there? In the morning? Oh,

Keith Ewart  43:22  
eight, 830 Yes. Came in edit in the morning. Have a pre production meeting for tomorrow in the lunch hour, when Michael took all the clients out to lunch, and then shoot the afternoon till about 1011, and then they'd rebuild the set for tomorrow.

Roy Fowler  43:37  
So it was operating 24 hours a day or less, but only

Keith Ewart  43:39  
Monday to Friday. We only worked on three, two or three Saturdays in my memory. The first was when we promised to make a commercial for Cadbury snack, and I forgot to make it, and Michael suddenly reminded me that we this commercial. I said, oh, god yes, I was going to do that when there was a photo animation. And so we did on a Saturday. The second was when perhaps the best producer I ever worked with, Jeffrey Woodward, if you remember him, probably before your time. And we made a commercial with pen for eggs. We made three, and I did all the

Roy Fowler  44:18  
camera work. I remember the famous egg pen commercials. Vaguely. I remember it happening, yes.

Keith Ewart  44:23  
And when we'd finished those, Dougal Rankin was going to produce them. Rankin was a producer, and it was fine. He didn't even know who. He rang me up and said, Who is this pen? I hope to tell him. And pen was wonderful,

Unknown Speaker  44:40  
wonderful. They brought him over, yes, and he

Unknown Speaker  44:43  
didn't, funnily enough, he didn't like i.

End of Side 3

Side 4

Roy Fowler  0:03  
There's a side for to be safe. Let's pick up about you say,

Keith Ewart  0:06  
pen didn't like one the girls, but it but otherwise we got on fire. And he is a master. He's excellent. I worked the camera for him, and we did these commercials. Now, next thing that happened was that I had a call from Google ranking. Say, saying they wanted more commercials in the pen series, but the budget had been cut down so much that they couldn't afford pen. Was he right in saying that we wouldn't do them without pen?

Keith Ewart  0:38  
And I said, Dougal, you're being very unfair. I know what I did and I know what pen did, and I'd love to do one without pen, and so I can't ring them up and say I won't do it without pen. Of course, I'll do it if somebody asked me to make an egg commercial. After all, I'm making commercials. I did it with pen because I was asked to. But I am, you know, commercials make it. This is my job. I can't say I won't do it. We have to call in another man to do it. So he went away and a half, and Jeffrey Woodward dragged me a gentle giant man, not giant in that show, but giant in the brain. And he said, Look, I've been landed with this. I say you're not landed with anything. It's marvelous. So we met the writer whose name suddenly escapes me. A very famous writer takes all the credit for it, but she was on the next series. She wasn't on it at all very well, but she didn't do it at all. It was her predecessor. This was Rosie Oxley remembers the name, and we met in a restaurant in Chelsea. And this was story of a mother, and the mother came in with the eggs to the little boy and the father in bed and so on and so forth. And anyway, they did it, the mother. In the end, everybody sway. Even research described the mother, and she wasn't in it at all. But all the research described the mother. After the film, people said, Will you describe the mother? They all described us. You wanted it. No sign of a woman in it. And we did this thing, and it went up to that Shelton had another property of the monster, hangers on,

Unknown Speaker  2:22  
the two Harries. No,

Keith Ewart  2:24  
this Wes. This was Bill Williams, oh, god, yes. I always called him the used car King, because I remember the American commercial. Bill Williams used car. I remember they always remember their line, drive in with your car, walk out with the check. I always thought that was a rotten line. And Bill Williams, Jeff, we took this commercial in, and I said, I want to enter it for can. And Jeff, we ran back, said, there's no way they're going to allow you to enter it for can, because they're entering pens. This year, I said I wanted to run against pens. You know, it's my job. Oh, well, Bill Williams there. You can't, because he wants some changes made. So I said, wasn't they? They described the changes, which meant shooting a little bit, and wasn't evil. So I said, right, call him in on Saturday. I'll pay for it. So he called him in on Saturday. I said, now I can enter it. That's finished. And I did enter it, and it did beat pens. And so it should have beaten pens first of all, because the writer, by then knew the game, had seen Pence and was involved. I mean, we had a better chance than pen. And also, one person is better than two, if you see what I mean. So so it did. It did beat pens. It can beat everything at can. But anyway, that was Jeffrey, and when I I left the festival after pride by the back door because I just didn't want to face shelter and all the rest of it. And Jeffrey wasn't there. And I'm told that Shelton, I'm told by very reliable source of Chairman of the wife of the milk marketing board at the time, the wife of the chair of the milk marketing board at the time, that Shelton swore black and blue and that he was given that I hadn't even been up to thank him afterwards. No, it's right. I left by the back door. I was too frightened to go out the fund and that he was going to break me. And indeed, he did his best, I have to tell you. And when I got back, I got a present from Jeffrey Woodward of a record of Marla's First Symphony. And that introduced me, interestingly enough, to Marla, and I became a Marla expert. I mean, now every note of his I know, every chord of his I know it gave me lifetime of pleasure that commercial thanks to Jeffrey Woodward. He introduced me to miles and Shelton. I never got another drop of work from that agency. That was the end of them, until the. The another man took over, was later sent out to Melbourne, not far enough. And the only other contact I had with Shelton was a few years later, when, first of all, he asked me to have his son on board here. That's not the there are two. There's rod rollers of the other one. Peter, oh yes, and I had his son on board here. Interestingly enough, even though they wouldn't give us anywhere, I gave him a project to do, and then he took me out to lunch and told me he was leaving. And I said, Who's going to take your place? He said, I've appointed a triumphant he said, Dan Ellington, two others, I can't remember who I said. That won't work. Shelley, and you know the person to replace you with that agency will push you out. You don't appoint them. And he really took exception to that. He didn't like that. And in fact, it was true, the triumphant was useless, no good at all. And it can't be if I appoint my success here, that's no good. I have to go and somebody do it and they make a mess or do it well, but it doesn't work. But he didn't like that at all. He took great exception to that monstrous mess. He was a terrible man. But anyway, the fact is, I didn't make a bad commercial for math and care. I didn't I couldn't do a bad commercial. I did scores of things for them, the gold leaf eggs can't remember, half of them, couldn't do a bad commercial for Shelton, because I don't know, just one of those things, he got it right. So I admire the man. I mean, he's monster, but admire him an admirable monster.

Roy Fowler  6:52  
Well, a monster I agree with. I had my problems with him, so I'm not sure I'd agree that he was admirable. Well,

Keith Ewart  6:58  
you know, I mean, the on results. I don't know if they produced anything better, since that's questionable. They

Roy Fowler  7:07  
had marvelous people there. Now doubtless Shelton was largely responsible for that. He hired them, he sold them, allowed them to operate, it seemed to me, to the full capacity. He brought me over from the States. I did terrible work after that because of what, I suppose, his interference. And the other person you mentioned, Google, Rankin, who

Keith Ewart  7:27  
Rankin, Rankin was a was a Rankin had a gift, but everybody had people for using money, for getting money. He could get to a budget. Rankin could get to the money. Now, there was no other agency where you could do that, and this is what upset him, that on that next egg thing, whereas Penn had cost him, obviously, a fortune. He couldn't get that money. And yet, for me, the budget was a king's ransom. And for Jeffrey Woodward, I mean, Jeffrey Woodward was good. And no question about I believe his son's an editor or something. Now I don't know. I believe he went to off to live in Malta. He doesn't know how much I admire him. He never knew. I don't think wonderful. Could sketch out what he had in mind. Intelligent producer was a bomber pilot during the Warner, can't remember him at all. Jeffrey wood, which is nobody remembers him, but he was very good anyway. There we are. So that was the commercial a day, every day.

Roy Fowler  8:22  
One last thing about pen was it the first time that such an American heavyweight had been imported? I definitely was so in a sense, that was innovative, because that later became a trend. Did it not to get either expensive Americans or Becker, but

Unknown Speaker  8:45  
stand here never works.

Roy Fowler  8:48  
No, no, no, no. I was involved

Keith Ewart  8:50  
in the bertston never it's clutch against stores. No substitute for good writer. None of it's a substitute for good writer. The advantage we had over pen was I had the writer

Roy Fowler  9:04  
good yes, good writer, good ideas, yes, yes,

Keith Ewart  9:07  
right. They got it right. Got the little story going just right for the one minute

Roy Fowler  9:14  
before we leave Glebe place and move into the edifice. Here. Are there any other people, individuals in the business I was at that time, either among the agencies, or you wouldn't know much about your competitors, I suppose. No,

Keith Ewart  9:29  
no, there were. There were several different streams. I mean, there was another whole stream which involved man with wooden leg at Bensons. So, yes, Boogie Barnes and therefore, the chap who directed all the monkeys and went off and made a musical that lost a fortune, who was a producer there, young Jewish chap, what's his name? You got me? Oh, you must know, damn silly, isn't it? You? I can't remember who directs all the PG Tips

Roy Fowler  10:01  
or did well? I know who does now, but I don't know who did. Who did Tony Tony Toler does

Keith Ewart  10:06  
well. Tony doll directs them himself. Does he well? Think so, before he writes them, before he started director, oh God, Jane, might remember his name. It'll come it'll suddenly come to me in a flash of light. But he that whole stream was where we were, kind of art director stream. Were showbiz stream, and that was a whole different stream. And they had their credits, ma remains, too good, and so on. You know, they did have, they did leave a mile, but they wouldn't work with me at all. I didn't work for Bence at all. His name came, funny memory, a thing, and his name just came and went before I could catch it. It'll come again in a moment. Stringle

Unknown Speaker  10:44  
Bernie, Bernie, stringel

Keith Ewart  10:47  
Bernie was Bernie, was a producer at Benson's, and pull that up and later became a director, of course, but he that whole school was complete stranger to me.

Roy Fowler  11:04  
Well, then there is, and

Keith Ewart  11:05  
I was working on two levels, which was a dangerous thing to do and probably caught me out in the end, except I did have as good an innings as anybody else. But as well as working on all the chunky with Clarence, Freud and Benson and hedges and all the lovely things for Colette, Dickson and Pierce. And I was also doing the fairy liquid and the fairy toilet soap and all the Procter and Gamble things. So I was working on these two completely separate, separate levels and getting away with it for a while. Don't get away with it forever, but then don't get away with ending forever. Well, the fairy

Roy Fowler  11:38  
liquid films had a great distinction. Well, yes, everybody hate it. Well, not very liquid. Maybe, maybe

Keith Ewart  11:46  
bring them back. I mean, they're still doing them, so the clown likes them,

Roy Fowler  11:50  
but it was technique, I think, overriding poverty, I probably strict an idea.

Keith Ewart  11:56  
Well, yesterday, I'm afraid to say, you say so, but now that poverty stricken idea is still going yes, because what? I don't know what the brands doing, but

Roy Fowler  12:05  
would you not say it was a poverty stricken idea? I don't know. I told you banal idea. I don't

Keith Ewart  12:09  
know. I mean, I don't know if, I don't know if there's anything wrong. I don't know. I don't know what that I'm not literally enough to tell you I don't know. I know that if it made it a brand leader, it was a good idea. What could you say about it? I mean, was it meant to be

Roy Fowler  12:24  
poetry? Well, better, better those commercials, certainly, than Nanette Newman, for example.

Keith Ewart  12:30  
Yes, I think that better, perhaps anything, than Nanette Newman, yes.

Roy Fowler  12:37  
And rest in peace. Brian Forbes, we're then still in the 50s, early 60s. No, I think the the B picture, people are leaving the scene. No, they couldn't deliver in terms of, yes,

Keith Ewart  12:52  
yes, they've gone. I think that they had their time. The reason, I mean, one of the things that we must remember, is that the reason that the thing took off so slowly and that the BP to be featured, people got to hold and so on, was, remember that it is a ridiculous situation that the only difficulty I had when we started making commercials was not how to work a camera or how to understand the soundtrack or How to edit or how to cope with the actors, or how to portray the humor or to shoot the product, was how to get into the Union. Now there's the first big nonsense that the preoccupation was with getting into the Union. I mean, that everything else I was doing already, and in the end, they let me in, I think, out of desperation. But that is ridiculous situation. It was a

Unknown Speaker  13:45  
problem for you. Was it? Oh, a problem? Of

Keith Ewart  13:47  
course, it was a problem. Yeah. I mean, what can I say? Who's going to sign the form? Michael and I got in the same time. He did it somehow. I don't know how, but we didn't, if we didn't know anybody, yes, terrible problem. Proposed, seconded, nothing. I don't know how we got in, but we did. But of course, it might be on record somewhere there, but of course, it's ridiculous. But fancy that that should be a problem. I mean, that's ridiculous, you know, I bet it wouldn't be a problem today.

Roy Fowler  14:12  
No, it certainly it would be in some areas, not as a director, it might be if you wanted to be a sound man, for example, there are one or two little craft sections, the editors, the camera people and sound people who are very protective,

Keith Ewart  14:29  
yes, but the idea isn't that. The idea should be that the it is a league, as it were, of people all sharing the same craft and the same interest. I know it's not a craft union that's a cop out, but actually, I hate to quote Mein Kampf, but it's a great video. The union is used to quote Mr. Hitler in 1920 as a battering ram for the class war, and that's how he looked. On the unions. He wasn't keen on them, but it is interesting because, because that complaint could be leveled at ours and others, and that's exactly what they're not meant to be. So I've never, I've never, I mean, I've been remember the union longer than anybody here, and I'm the person, not the anyone here, but who really does make absolutely certain that it stays as a union shop. It's very popular now to have to cut away. We won't cut away. And the people who are buying us are also of that mind, I'm glad to say, because I believe in it, but I must say that it survives in spite of such abuse as a miracle, because the abuse has been awful. The unions within the union awful.

Roy Fowler  15:40  
Certainly, that was true in the past, and I think it's still true in some areas.

Keith Ewart  15:45  
Certainly. I mean, we have had an example where Yorkshire Television, yes, sent down a whole they were going to do a program here, and sent down a number of people to see it. I thought they were Motley bunch, but anyway, I showed them around point everything out of them, and we were turned down too much like a television studio had to do it in a four Waller people who came down with the local shop studios. Was ludicrous at that time we were starting.

Roy Fowler  16:14  
It's the fashion, I suppose, that currently we're going through, well, no,

Keith Ewart  16:17  
because it's bad management. Again, it's bad management. It's bad management of the union. The union has paid very dearly for it. Yes, that it may suit and even if it's being recorded, but only on hearsay or what I read, it may suit Alan Safa to that we are a battering ram for the class war, but it isn't good for us. Oh, I agree AM, and all the rest of it would never have happened had the union structure been more intelligent, actually, because it's ludicrous and sad. Luckily, whether it's ACTT or any other unit, it won't go on being non union. I've written a little article in the back of televisual the union is dead. And then Long live the union at the end. And it is just a simple statement that it can't possibly, you can't possibly negotiate with 150 disciplined individual can't do it. You need an intelligent shop steward. Is what you need. You know,

Roy Fowler  17:15  
I think maybe to some extent, you misplaced the blame for what's been happening in the union, because it hasn't been entirely the secretariat. Now I can tell you, I mean, Roy locket is a man of eminent I think that is

Keith Ewart  17:27  
quite right. I think that it happened. I think it's been very much what I call a union within the union at a local level. But unfortunately, I'm not saying necessarily that the secretariat is responsible. I'm saying that being the management, if you like, and even though then there are not our bosses, but our employees, I think it would be their job to make sure that those abuses did not take place, and their courage to encourage those abuses. There was no way that I could bring up Soho square and say, Hey, these moms sent around five, six shops to us, and they've stopped us doing a job because they want to do it before Warner because we're too much when we pay subscriptions were the same, and look at some of the statements that come out about the new fragmentation, as they call it, of the industry. Yes, of course, there are some evils attached to it. On the other hand, there are some good things attached to it and it unfortunately, a number of us, like me, have been paying a subscription for a number of years, like 30, and to be told that we are the parasites and so on by the people who are living off our wages one way or another. It's not on. It's not on. I'm not fond of it, and I do blame the Secretary to not to a great extent, I think that they, they are political. I mean, you know, and we shouldn't be to do with politics. It's taking for granted that BAFTA does it, of course. What's it called? Can't remember the bashand something, Thatcher Association. It's silly. It's not what. We're here about bashing Thatcher. We're here about making good movies or commercials. Well,

Roy Fowler  19:06  
there are actions and reactions, but there is another dimension to the union that I would like to put to you, which is, yes, on the one hand, there are elements of the Secretariat and members of the staff who are fighting the class war, conducting a class war. But it is, no matter what you say, a totally Democratic Union, and the machinery is there for the will of the members and the majority to operate this. It does. The machinery does get captured. That's

Keith Ewart  19:34  
that. And you've said it. I mean, unfortunately, you know as well as I that the machinery will be captured by politically minded individuals who have the energy and the time to exercise their democratic right to take the bloody thing over and to shout me down if I have a single minded and congratulate some congratulations to them, you could say. That there would many be many people on my staff more ardent than I am about owning units, or whatever it may be, who could do the same for this company. The reason they can't do it is because I am there and I'm going to stop them. And in the end, if the object of the somebody has to decide what the object of the trade union is, but if it is to improve the and to maintain the wages of working conditions for the majority of the members, then a small clique should not allow to be taken to take it over and broadcast political views which are not shared or not known to be shared by the majority of the members. In spite of the fact that at that meeting, by the time they finished with it, at three in the morning, they got a unanimous vote of seven, because all the other 80 had gone home. I mean, there was a very good example when this can't pay, won't pay on the tubes thing cropped up. That was a year here when Limehouse had just opened, and this company was doing excessively badly. I mean, we'd never had a redundancy, because I consider they're immoral. We were very near to having 32 of them. That's all of us, and it's not that long ago, and they had a meeting in the local school, or whatever about the two can't pay, won't pay, two raises and so on. And Mr. Knight was there, and God knows what else. And we were due to be surcharged on the rates of the company several 1000 pounds towards this thing. And frankly, it would have been the end of us. I mean, in the end, they withdrew it. But the meeting itself was my first and only experience of one of those meetings where there was no view put forwards that wasn't shouted down by the clack, that didn't agree with Mr. Knight, and it was as if it was all the reports were that at the end of the day it was carried united. Of course it was everybody else walked out in disgust, and it was a complete takeover of the Democratic Now you may say that's what democracy is about, old boy, well, it's freedoms in the speech about shouting fire in a crowded theater, it's back to the freedom and life absolutely unacceptable. And all they said about companies is, oh well, they won't fiddle their taxes anyway. A few more 1000 won't hurt them.

Roy Fowler  22:10  
Can we just it's irrelevant to this? No, no, no, he doesn't know. But for the sake of whoever listens to this in 50 years, Knight was the what the ones, whether he was

Unknown Speaker  22:19  
from Brent or somewhere it was imported.

Roy Fowler  22:23  
But this has nothing to do with the film Union.

Keith Ewart  22:24  
It has to do with London, yes, but it is. It was, it was a democratic meeting. It was my experience. We were talking about the democracy of the people who take over the local shop. Well, this was a similar piece of democracy, and they carried the day. The government stopped them in the end.

Roy Fowler  22:41  
That certainly happened in ACTT when, when the trots infiltrated every single section, more or less, until finally, the worms turned and did you remember the meeting?

Keith Ewart  22:51  
I remember, yes, I remember certainly, certainly I wasn't there. But I do remember, and I think that that in the end, will happen, although they couldn't in Germany.

Roy Fowler  23:04  
You mean, they couldn't subvert the process, couldn't turn

Keith Ewart  23:07  
in Germany, the small clique took over, the Jews locked out of the window and other Jews being beaten up, and drew the curtains, hoping that nobody realized that they were family.

Roy Fowler  23:22  
You seem more benevolently inclined towards Mrs. Thatcher than I am. I see some of those aspects here. Now

Keith Ewart  23:29  
a total you, as you might do, and I think there is a danger, and probably should be there too long. On the other hand, once again, of people, all the mock shock horror about the inflation rate at eight, 8% I remember one year we paid 19% we couldn't afford it. We couldn't put our clients prices up 19% why? Because nobody could stop it. Somebody did stop it all in the end, and I'm afraid to say that was nanny. Well, oh, Nanny, now my, I said this to you on telephone. I mean, my, my, now Heffer, if you like, but previously, Mr. Callahan, Callahan had it all for me. I thought it was wonderful. And he went into that annual conference and he begged of the unions, we've got to be restrained. We can't go on like this, and they wouldn't do it yes, and in the end, that's telephone ringing of somebody who thinks that I'm here. So unfortunately, although it would have been wonderful to think that we would have voluntarily accepted all the restraints and changes and things that have taken place and have improved the situation. For in many respects, there are some glaring anomalies which are, which is what you're talking about. But it's pity we didn't do it voluntarily. We had to do it. We had to have, oh, Nanny with a big stick, come on. What a shame. I. Don't approve of that, but it had to be done. Had to be done here, apart from anywhere else.

Roy Fowler  25:04  
It was the corrective historical movement.

Keith Ewart  25:07  
What'll happen next? Go alone. Yes, I'm afraid to say it'll be the it'll be the other side that I've been fortunately, there won't be anybody further on the right side.

Unknown Speaker  25:21  
Anybody left who persuaded of that under the stones,

Keith Ewart  25:30  
well, they may be understood. I'm afraid to say that nice Mr. Ken x not going to get far, although that may turn out to be a silly thing to say. Whoever listened in 50 years, he's he's been the prime minister, but I don't think he'll be the prime minister. I'm afraid the heifer days are gone as well. I never did like the opportunists like Mr. Ben and Mr. Hasley. It's very hard to see who is going to offer himself. Mr. Hazeltine, whatever his name is. I can't believe it. Sir Jeffrey, how he wouldn't be so stupid? Well,

Roy Fowler  26:00  
there's no one, it seems there. But then nobody would have said that Margaret hillder was going to do it.

Keith Ewart  26:06  
No, I must say, that did come as a surprise, although I suppose she showed some signs of it in these in the fishing conference in Iceland, she showed what she could do. But they are, what a shame, what a shame. We don't read them well, of course, we don't breed them. Anybody who makes waves, and you know what happens to people

Roy Fowler  26:27  
who make waves? Yes, it isn't. It isn't very English, not

Keith Ewart  26:30  
now, maybe it never was, but I suppose you know now I don't imagine that the head coming up above the crowd of the Conservative Party is last long without being chopped off.

Roy Fowler  26:44  
Half your blood from what you said before, is what

Keith Ewart  26:49  
that no, it's, it's more like Central European, Jewish, I suppose, yes.

Roy Fowler  26:54  
Does that enable you to be more objective? Do you think Don't? Don't know? No, you're fully part of this? No,

Unknown Speaker  27:02  
I mean, I was born here.

Roy Fowler  27:06  
I'm, well, you know, a quarter German. I'm not sure that makes me objective, but I pride myself that I can sit on and not on. I don't

Keith Ewart  27:13  
know. I really don't know. I really don't know. While we're on

Roy Fowler  27:17  
to unionism, your place here is, is what part of London television or London freelance? It's,

Keith Ewart  27:28  
oh, no, we're free. You are free, but we're on the ITV, agree with last people on the agreement has made with all the stations. I think we're the last people on it. But anyway, it's just we're on the on the network agreement, the ITV, network agreement. I was

Roy Fowler  27:40  
curious if that attempted a break away a few months ago the TF, did you have any of them here?

Keith Ewart  27:49  
No, we wouldn't have we wouldn't have done that. Nobody here would have done that now.

Roy Fowler  27:58  
Well, doubtless we'll come back to the ACTT, maybe at the very end, it's usually a good wrap up subject. I'm not sure what more is to be said about Glee place or making commercials, late 50s, early 60s.

Keith Ewart  28:10  
Well, nothing. I was probably declining by late 60s, 6566

Roy Fowler  28:16  
you had what like 10 very

Keith Ewart  28:18  
good years, and then I would say, made two and a half 1000, versus made 3000 commercials. Made 3000 enemies.

Roy Fowler  28:25  
Where were the enemies? Mostly concentrated in the agencies. Yes,

Keith Ewart  28:29  
I think the agency producers didn't love me very much. I mean, I got on well with the art directors, and therefore tended to talk over the heads of the producers to the art director and that nobody liked me doing that. But, I mean, I had to get it done, you know. And I couldn't really be doing it with 50 different views of how to shoot it, because there were 50 people standing, I mean, I couldn't do it, everyone looking through the viewfinder. Yeah, everybody, well, they're more difficult because I was there, so that was a little more difficult

Roy Fowler  28:59  
we're in. Kind of forget, too, that the producer then had a great deal more power,

Keith Ewart  29:04  
did he not? I don't know. I don't know what he has now, my

Roy Fowler  29:07  
impression is it's less and it's more with the so called creative people.

Keith Ewart  29:11  
Well, really in my day, I think it was too Perhaps that's why the producers on the whole probably like me less than the creative people on the whole. I was even people like Colin Clark. He was an art director who became producer. Willie Landel art director who became who he didn't come a producer. He left and came into Harper screen. But and Colin noelward was an art director. So the people yes may that whatever they would call sent down producers, people like the tailor. Of two tailors, Len Taylor, nice enough, Chad they but yes, they were. They ran pretty good producers, actually good producers. I think I'm not certain what I thought the J word Thompson ones, yes, they. Quite good too. At one time, I think that the younger group would come. On the whole, I worked with the art directors, to work with Rosie Oxley and the producers and Sheila Hendry on Procter and Gamble. And Procter and Gamble had their own man there who'd been there for 50 commercials, and producer only arrived yesterday. So on the whole, it was their view that was so I think producer probably resented that, but I didn't have time, even if, I mean, I didn't consider that, probably

Unknown Speaker  30:31  
would you say you were difficult to work with? Depends

Keith Ewart  30:34  
only if you wanted me to do something I didn't know how to do, and I suppose I know how to do or didn't want to do, probably because I felt I wouldn't do it very well or, I mean, there was a time element involved. I mean, I had today to do it, and I thought about it. This is the way I saw it going to be done. And suddenly, if you don't know, take that, pull over apart and stitch it up another way. Well, yeah, that's for another day. I can't do that. And I've built the set, right? I mean, everything the design, everything was built around it, everything, everything the sound, everything the timing, everything was built around this way of doing it. I couldn't unstitch it. It was stitched before I ever got in the studio. That was the trouble I didn't ever invent on the floor, not my stuff. Do you

Roy Fowler  31:15  
work from scripts? Oh, yes, storyboards, yeah, your own were the agencies?

Keith Ewart  31:20  
Well, the agencies, but I was, I was there when they were revised. There were no surprises, no surprises. Never could do anything with surprise. I'm a slow thinker. Couldn't cope with surprises. Suddenly, somebody came in and said, Oh, by the way, we've got another scene now we want to bring so that's not we'll have a pre production meeting about tomorrow's commercial at lunchtime the day after. I can't, you know, I'm doing this one. I couldn't cope with surprises. Not clever enough, not quick enough, stylistically,

Roy Fowler  31:50  
your work was, was, was known. So if people came to you, they would more or less have a very good

Keith Ewart  31:56  
they all had a very good idea about, I mean, it is extraordinary thing. They all, you know that high key lighting? Well, I know we've got examples here, but just as many of the things I took against the black background, I don't know, there was certain simplicity that made people think that they were all done against white, but they weren't.

Roy Fowler  32:11  
That's the lingering memory. Yes,

Keith Ewart  32:16  
I can show the majority of commercials were with sets. Majority were with sets, white commercial.

Roy Fowler  32:27  
Remember one? But even your very liquid ones, which stick in my mind, has the appearance, yeah, well, they might be in sets, but still very high key lighting and sunlight through the windows. Well, you say,

Keith Ewart  32:42  
so they glad, I'm very glad that it's lingered in the memory like that, very little back lighting, by the

Unknown Speaker  32:50  
way we created like the

Keith Ewart  32:53  
people remember the mother in the egg. They describe her. They describe her, Woman in mid 30s. I mean, they've got to absolutely weighed up there at all,

Roy Fowler  33:02  
right? Which, if any, were your favorites, either accounts or specific commercials.

Keith Ewart  33:12  
Does anything specific people? Working with Rosie Oxley or Willie landlord or Colin noelward was favorite. I don't even remember what I work on, but working with specific people was an enormous pleasure,

Roy Fowler  33:23  
and it was work, wasn't it? You were never one for the rave ups or the

Keith Ewart  33:27  
never did. No, no, not a social animal in that said no, no, no. The pleasure came from Oh yes. I like being in the studio. Yes, oh yes.

Roy Fowler  33:39  
I wonder where the times changing that began to make you feel that glue place was

Keith Ewart  33:46  
no because the time, the change in the Times never went the way I thought it would. I mean, when Harold Wilson came to power in 62 or whatever it was, it was just the time. What was it for? Four? Okay, okay. And it was just the time that the mini skirts are all come out, and all the rest of it, and people wanted to get these mini skirts into the commercials, and I couldn't see they were relevant to the toothpaste. And I had a strong feeling, ah, yes, but now that we've got a, you know, Harold Wilson and so on, all that gloss will go and we'll start getting serious again. It's all because I was absolutely wrong about it. Swing in London started, and the thing fell apart. So whereas I thought that social, being with it some kind of, I don't know what made me think it ignorance, but, I mean, you know, some discipline everybody would be working for the course, that was absolute nonsense, of course. So yes, times were probably changing, but never the way I thought they would. Well, in fact, the move here, I thought that was going to be, you know, everybody want to come to a property place built specially for it. I mean, you couldn't want anything else. So they wanted to go to Soho, to a strip joint where they want to go to want to come to Wandsworth. Do

Roy Fowler  34:51  
they Well, if you're still on blue place, how did it affect you? Business began to to fall off. Was business,

Keith Ewart  34:58  
I suppose, began to fall off. Although it's difficult to say when business was falling off, because it fell off, and then suddenly we had a flash of business to the head again, and then it fell off. So it's not, it's not we made 250 commercials, and then 200 then 150 that. But it obviously did fall off. By the time we got here, it had fallen off, I think. Yeah,

Roy Fowler  35:16  
no. Began to plan this place when? What was the genesis? What? Well,

Keith Ewart  35:22  
I think we bought the first site the very early 60s, or even late 50s.

Roy Fowler  35:28  
Chris Richmond

Keith Ewart  35:30  
had lost Richmond left after a year, saying that he'd found me several sites, and he didn't think I was serious. He didn't think I really want to site, to build a studio at all because he'd found several and I hadn't accepted them. And I said, Christopher, you haven't found the right site. That's all there is to it. But you know, yes, go if you want to. And the Saturday after the Friday, he left, I went in studio, was to open the mail, and there was a garage, oh garage in Wandsworth, oh garage, and paint shop in one that was this the set. I bought it on the Monday.

Roy Fowler  36:04  
Yes, what made sense to you in terms of the site?

Keith Ewart  36:07  
Well, I knew where it was. The size was right, although it was only a third of the site. We have now a quarter, but I thought the size was right, and I looked at it, was that right area? Fine, just what I'm looking for,

Roy Fowler  36:23  
what had been developing in your mind had was this a little acorn that was growing. I'm thinking about a studio. When you think of this place, and gleed place, there's greed place, which is almost a cottage industry, in a lovely little dating that's

Keith Ewart  36:38  
quite right. I didn't think that the agencies would want the cottages. Of course they did. They wanted more cottage and green place. The green place was much too, too professional, but I thought that they'd want to, you know, I always thought that, you know, proper the proper studio with proper things.

Roy Fowler  36:59  
This wasn't a trap you'd fallen into because you were saying previously about people who love the bells and the clapper boards. Yes,

Keith Ewart  37:06  
oh, no. I didn't think we'd necessarily have the bells and the clapper boards, but I did think that, you know, we'd take in the raw stock in the back door and deliver the product out of the front door, and it would and people would have a canteen. I mean, our people were suffering from my whole marriage, have a canteen. And, you know, the camera, you know, proper everything, instead of the bodging there, everything was bodged up there, proper editing rooms, and, as I say, optical departments,

Roy Fowler  37:30  
so Ultra everything under one roof,

Keith Ewart  37:34  
probably train set again, wasn't it not like the armored cars? You know, I wanted a train set. I wanted the Odeon woman when I was a boy. They've drawn it down now. I like the colored lights on the curtains.

Roy Fowler  37:48  
Well, it's awesome. World's famous line that this is the biggest electric trainer boy ever. Now had had this somehow been forming in your mind in terms of the physical appearance of the place,

Keith Ewart  38:02  
the physical appearance of the place was great disappointment. What happened was that I there was a very bad architect who was our I wanted Stephen Gardner to do it, and then old Uncle Walter, by then, come over from America, was living here. Was our financial director. He'd retired, and he lived six months in Europe, six months here. I gave him the place, and he lived there. And I wanted to get Stephen Gardner, although I did feel Stephen would never finish it. But I mean, he was a great architect. Still is. He writes about it. And Uncle Walter had a friend of it and you know, say, when he had a friend in America whose nephews, brothers, something or other, was over here, Jeffrey salmon. And he was the idealized and I don't mind what to do Walter, you know, if you want to get Jeffrey salmon, all right, go and get Jeffrey salmon. Jeffrey salmon had a very good youngster working with him called John Albion. And so I did the flow diagrams with John Albion. And out of the flow diagram should have come the building. Now I did say that if you stand under the bow of a big ship, you have an unbroken mass. And I said there's very few opportunities for an unbroken mass, and the studio is one of them. And so it gives us an opportunity to build, certainly, if you want to build a brick, but build a let's demonstrate that mass. And of course, they put all these dents in and everything, which I didn't like at all, and in the event, they became wander as public lavatories. I mean, it was just a desperate mistake putting those dents in so I didn't like the outside of the building compared. It wasn't my, my idea of what it should be. Was it the fashion? Primarily, I don't know. I had no idea. I couldn't argue with the architects. In the architects. In the end, I said, Well, you're the architects. If you want to put dents, you've got to put dents in but I still think it's a shame. But the flow was perfect. The bit that I did, I'm sorry to say it hasn't changed to this day. Hasn't changed at all. All, we've changed a few things inside, like this area here, but broadly speaking, it's the same it's the same flow without questions, the same building as we walked into. And that was 1967 now it's 1989 and that was to make commercials on film. And I'd never been to film studio, and now it's a fully operational television station, more or

Roy Fowler  40:22  
less, but you had an eye on video. Did you not take? Well, I didn't know what

Keith Ewart  40:26  
it would be on. I knew it was on something, but at that time, remember, CBS were working with thermoplastic, yes, and I thought that sounded lovely, but I didn't know what any of it

Roy Fowler  40:35  
was. But you incorporated racks areas, although, you know, I didn't

Keith Ewart  40:39  
know galleries. I put galleries in because I thought how lovely it would be for the sound department to be overlooking the

Roy Fowler  40:44  
studio. They were originally sound areas, but even so lavish, lavish space for sound. Yes,

Keith Ewart  40:51  
yes. Well, that just worked out fortuitously. Well, I always thought though, no, I thought that we might need television galleries of some description when, when something else came. I mean, I knew we wouldn't finish up single camera film. There would be other things, and they might need galleries, and galleries overlooked studios, I'd been told so, you know that was, yes, I knew that, but I didn't know quite what was going to what it was going to be. I had no idea, to be honest, if you told me that in 20 years time, you doing broadcast audience programs on John's and was, I wouldn't believed it. So I wouldn't have accepted it. I would say, I don't want all of them. I'm great commercials. I'm the director around here. So, I mean, at that time, I probably could have got all sorts of Alan Parkers and god knows what else to come and work here. And being a very successful James Garrett with my own facilities, I didn't want them here, and I'm not sorry I didn't take up here, I have to tell you, but that would have been another route, yes,

Roy Fowler  41:55  
but not yours, not mine. The there's one thing that may lead us into more about the building. Was this, the first purpose built, ground up studio in London, specifically aimed for commercials. I think it

Keith Ewart  42:17  
must have been Yes, must have been, and the last Yes, because nobody would be such fool as to do it twice. And in fact, what happened was that we did the plans for a studio on that first garage site. And next door to us was an old, what had been an old church and then a little village school, and was now occupied by a mattress maker, and it was an equal site to ours. And I appealed to the church to celebrate the Catholic Church, and they weren't interested, and so on, so forth. And wimpies did the plans for our studio as a package deal, and they came out. Yes, this is the plans, and if you accept it, there'll be 125,000 pounds, or whatever they were. Blah, whatever they were, plus or minus 5% and I wrote an order out to them, which was the best order I've ever written, providing the final price the building does not exceed 120 5000 plus or minus 5% please go ahead to the next stage of drawings, and six months later they came back for the next stage and it was plus 18% or something. They're so used to having wasted six months of people's time that people always bite the bullet. But the day before I got that piece of paper, the vicar turned up with the church next door said, Do you want to buy this site? And so I didn't want that building. And so I told wimpies, too expensive, not negotiable. It's off. I said providing. And I did. I was absolutely morally in every other way, right? They were trying to take me, and as it happens, they'd pick the wrong time. I then started talking to the local priest, Father o' Casey or something, and he gazumped me three times. I mean, he was a cook, and in the end, when it was all ready to sign for the third time, and he gazumped me, I rang up Archbishop's house because I had photographed the Cardinal. And when I had photographed the cardinal, if you stop it, I'll go back to the story.

Unknown Speaker  44:20  
End of Side 4

Side 5

Keith Ewart  0:08  
Side five. Yes, I can't remember the Cardinal's name with one of the eminent cards, but his secretary was Monsignor Warlock, who's now the Bishop of Liverpool. And I rang up Warlock, and I said, you don't know I got him on telephone. I said, You don't know me, but I did arrange through you a few years ago to photograph Archbishop, whatever his name was, and I'm ringing you to tell you that father of Fauci around the corner is giving me a rough time and that I'm trying to buy this old site, and he's gazumped me three times. And the way that I've been treated, frankly, if I came to you in confession and told you that you told me to go back and sin no more, because absolutely outrageous, and they signed the contract within an hour, and so I got sight next door so wimpy, said they'd sue me because they wanted 6000 pounds for their drawings. And I said, you don't get a penny because I said, providing it's not going to exceed that, and it's exceeded it by an enormous amount. And so I'm stopping all that. And by then, Uncle Walter was on the scene and didn't want Stephen Garner, or wimpies, as he called them. And so in came this friend of his, Jeffrey Simon. Now Jeffrey Simon had this good youngster, John Albin. We did the flow diagrams, and then the building went up. And later on, we bought the other sites, which another car park with two more sites, two or three more sites. So that's all to say about the building and the building. We've stayed inside the building. More or less we store the sets in those pan technicals outside. But more or less, I've kept a rule that that site has to be kept clear for somebody who builds another stage, which my successors might do, should do, should do, whether they will do or not. I don't know what they should do.

Speaker 2  1:52  
But anyway, that's all about the building. Is there an optimum size? Do you think to the studio?

Keith Ewart  1:56  
That's a very good question. If you did research, you'd have an enormous studio. The trouble is, there's an optimum price, and people aren't accustomed to paying for facilities. I mean, facilities are cheap, and that's the small part of the budget. Now we've got 60, 5019, foot to the grid, and there's no doubt that is too small. Limehouse had 6000 square feet, 80 by six, 848, no, 100 by 80 or 100, I said, 90 by Saturday. But they had to discount 1500 square feet every time they rented it out. People wanted it, but they wouldn't pay for it. I suppose the optimum size is something like 65 by 7525 feet to the grid. That's a size that will do all the audience shows still not be too big, that the audience would be remote and that people could afford to pay for Have you lost work because of the stage time? Oh, I suppose so. Yes.

Roy Fowler  2:52  
Nothing that really rankles, or

Unknown Speaker  2:54  
everything rankles, it does. Yes. I mean

Unknown Speaker  3:00  
asking how much

Keith Ewart  3:02  
I don't know. I really don't know, because, again, I don't know about the work we don't do. I only know about the work we do do. Is the funny thing about this, whenever people have been forced to work in the smaller studios, for example, play bus works in B when it came here, couldn't possibly work if it was too small. I said, Well, you can't have a because your booking is such and you can only have B. Now they work in B, and when I tell them this story, they said, no, no, no, Keith, we always knew it was going to be perfectly and they don't believe it, because they were accustomed to bigger space. The fact is, once you're in the smaller space, the sets are cheaper. Everything is better. Everything is better. Actually, the audience and the actors have a better rapport everything. I mean, when Jonathan Ross went off to the palladium and did his show there, it was a disaster, disaster. He didn't know how to play the big audience for a start up. But in any case, it's just not a club he's a club act. You don't but a club act in the palladium and also the palladium, you don't go on unrehearsed. Palladium is glitz and Jonathan was, is not Blitz.

Roy Fowler  4:03  
You said your ears and a sign should build a third stage. They should. Is that what you think is the right number of stages for? Yeah,

Keith Ewart  4:13  
I don't know, but it's all you can fit here so, but I think that it would do yes, I felt the need for third Yes. I think you need it. Yes, you need it. I mean, my, my, we're going, we're always going one stage ahead of where you want to be. But my retirement is timed to coincide with the need, in my opinion, for enormous expansion, which I could never do as an individual. Yes, and the timing of the retirement really comes at the end, but it is. I do feel that now is the time that its place should be expanding. And it's got much too big for one chapter. And at 63 you don't risk all your borrowing, another 5 million, or whatever it is, to start building a stage which will hardly be finished before you're in the tomb. I mean, you just don't do it. But the next people should do it. Mm. Will. They don't ask me,

Roy Fowler  5:03  
this is, I suppose, the wrong time to talk about the future of the studio, because the negotiations are still going on. Yeah, I

Keith Ewart  5:09  
can't tell you, but they should. Their aim is to carry it on the way I'm doing it. They go ahead, but with some silly questions they're asking. They might back out yet They'll see us. No business. Lovely hobby. Who wants to buy your hobby? You get a better return in the post office today, you can get 12% on your money in the bank. Who wants to have all the troubles of running a facility

Roy Fowler  5:35  
company? Where does it all go? New equipment?

Keith Ewart  5:39  
Of course, all of it, yes, of course, it does.

Roy Fowler  5:44  
On the other hand, historically, it was a marvelous investment, right in terms of bricks and mortar, would

Keith Ewart  5:49  
you say so? But if I had taken the 400,000 pounds in 1966

Unknown Speaker  5:57  
seven, and put them in the post office, and

Keith Ewart  6:00  
put them in the post office, I think it would be worth 7.3 million without having done days work. That's probably true if you take the price of commercials then was, say three and a half 1000 pounds maximum, and now it's a million pounds. So what's three and a half 1000 to a million. Don't ask me. 35 350 300 times as much. 300 times. 400,012 12 million. From

Unknown Speaker  6:30  
your point of view, is it that I might have a few notes from but

Unknown Speaker  6:33  
yes, have you had the

Roy Fowler  6:35  
electric train for too long? You don't want a new model. You want?

Unknown Speaker  6:39  
Oh, no, I don't want to No, no, no, God, no. Have I got a vibe? Warner, no, well,

Roy Fowler  6:46  
not exactly. I don't think anyone would suggest that. But is it? Is it that, maybe that there's an element of boredom? Now?

Keith Ewart  6:52  
No, I've done it. I didn't want to be a hotelier I met when I you. Two years ago, in June, the Society of lighting directors, whatever they called Association of British lighting, all the lighting directors in the country, anyway, marvelous bunch asked Lord Snowden to talk at their annual event, and he turned them down. They asked Patrick Litchfield, he turned them down. They had a week to go. So they asked me, and I said, Well, what is it? They said, well, all our wives. I said, Well, you don't want anyone talking about lighting. You want a cabaret. So I went on and I said, I'll think of something. And in the end, I gave the title, 60 years in 30 minutes, the diary of an independent Well, when I started writing it, I discovered that in 30 minutes, which is how long they wanted me to talk, I got through 30 years. So I only wrote the first 30 years. And I then said to them, so sorry, you've asked me to speak 30 minutes. The 30 minutes is up. If you want the next 30 years, better call me back next year. And I left the stand, and they called me back the following year, and so I gave them next 33 years, and at the end of that, after reading it, I came to the conclusion, I'm not going to do any more. Wouldn't it possible to do any more? So it's time I left, I will take the first opportunity to get out. Now, when I got back from my holidays, Roy Stonemaier, who is one of the most delightful directors, television directors you could ever meet, was terribly upset in the editing room. Why are you so upset? Well, because Channel Four said we're not allowed to give credit to the facilities. So I said, Will you pay us? Don't worry about it. No. But William G who's the producer on fifth one, says that only he and I can have a credit. And I think, considering your car, I said, forget it all. Roy stone, you're a nice man. It's lovely. And so William agreed that on the first and the last in the series, we'd all get credits. And he even took a full page in broadcast with credits for the cooks and everybody. And I thought it was an entirely satisfactory solution. Few weeks later, the last straw, as I call the last resort, the girl on that said, I'm afraid to say, we can't give we've got to shorten the credit. So I said, I believe in it. I think it's ridiculous. The credit the only program I made, Lucy, I didn't credit myself. Credited everybody else. Fine. And William G has the ideal answer. He credits everybody on the first and last in the series, and otherwise he keeps it short, fine. I said one thing that I wouldn't mind doing, and that is, we have the last resort on all our cameras. It doesn't show in short, but the audience are our guests as well as yours. So I'd quite like to change that back to yours. If we don't get a credit, fine. So the first time our credit came off, I told the people I put the units on the cameras and the graphics department last resort came and put last resort back on. So I went down, had a quiet word with Lady involved, and on the Saturday shows, on Friday night, I wrote a letter, sending a copy. For the commissioning editor at Channel Four, because I couldn't write to him direct over the head of my client, saying that, as the credits in the end had been longer, not shorter, and every runner and research assistant had been credited, the only people to be left off were ourselves, and the credits hadn't been shortened at all, and that we had seen them through all the pilots, and this was now the third series, I thought. And then they insisted on having last resort on the cameras. I thought that it was insensitive at best and insulting at worst. Or by the Monday when this letter was hand delivered to the lady in question, who happened to be married to a commissioning editor at Channel Four. I had the ugliest letter back that I have ever received, and I didn't mind. I just thought, that's it. I won't take the first opportunity. I'll make it. And I rang up our auditors to Winnie. I said, I want to meet you. They came down to lunch, and I said, I want you to get me out just like that, and that was it. And I don't regret it at all enough, I said, if that's the way I have to deal now, no, I've had all that when my ego was attached to the commercials, if you like, when my eye was attached to the viewfinder. I had to fight for survival, but if I have that sort of fight now, no, I'm not prepared to do it. And so out I came.

Roy Fowler  11:23  
And you think it is the end of the chapter, you think it will Yes,

Keith Ewart  11:28  
well, if these people don't buy it, I'm on the market again. I'll have to extend my sentence by another year, and somebody else buy but I am out. Oh yes, I won't have it anymore. I won't do it. I won't put up with that. I don't have to, and I won't.

Roy Fowler  11:43  
I will ask you in a while about what you see in the future. But what we've done is to make a very large

Keith Ewart  11:50  
jump. I know we keep doing it. I told you, always one stage ahead of where

Roy Fowler  11:55  
you have to be working out. It's just that we've barely moved into the gas, no. And yet, here you are. That's quite right, exposing of it, that's right. And in the course of those years, you became the hotelier, which, you

Keith Ewart  12:08  
know, I don't, wow. I mean, no, don't even get that impression. Don't, don't enjoy so much. Oh no, I don't even know. Yes, you are, yes if you go sort of place which you go, because the film festivals and things to the civiani in Venice and Dr oscone is the hotelier for one of the world's great hoteliers. Yes, he's your servant until you want a room. I mean, he's nobody's servant. I mean, he is a master hotelier is what is now if he meets a pig. I mean, his job is to keep his eyes open and keep standards up, and he does it remarkably well. He has one advantage, an unlimited budget to do it with more or less, because people will pay for the best. If he meets a pig, the pig will be let in next time, the room won't be quite so nice. But if I meet a pig, I don't mind being the hotelier, but if I meet a pig, I've only got BBC channel four and a little for my TV when they feel like it. I've just thrown out a third of my business. So unfortunately, if ever a hotelier, it would be fine. I could go around, but to be a hotelier on very limited budgets and allowed to be assaulted by every P that's not the same. So as long as I was dealing, as long as I'm dealing with people who come out of the stations and so on and who know what's good, I'm all right. But if I now smell the first sign this was of a generation coming out who've never worked anywhere else. So they know what's bad, but they don't know what's good. They've not worked the BBC, not worked in Granada, they've not worked here and there. They don't know what's good. Then I think it's time to go. Because what's the good of trying to produce excellence for people who don't know what's good, that that's intolerable. So I don't mind being a hotelier. The worry is more the climate in which I am made to operate. I didn't want to be a hotel. Of course. I had no choice. I mean, I went, I bought the commercials from 67 declined. Michael warhurst had his heart attack. Now this is an important turning point, probably 1970 71

Unknown Speaker  14:22  
you moved in here, and 67 September,

Keith Ewart  14:25  
and 70 or 71 telephone rings one morning. Michael's wife, he's had a heart attack, and we won't see him for a year. And I went to see him, and he was, more or less, all right, something kinked in his brain a bit, actually, but anyway, so I had never done an estimate for commercial. I never done anything Michael did at all. So let's have a look and see how he does it. He has all his files. I've got to go through. I've got to find out i. Uh, well, let's suffice to say that by the end of that week, and I think it was a Wednesday, Tuesday or Wednesdays to rank, I designed a whole new set of stationery, order books, schedules, this and the other, because we never had any, and they are still operating now, more or less in the same form. And that was a turning point, really, that I a little bit had to become an administrator, which I'd never done before. And I found it very creative work doing that statement. Very creative. Very interesting to say, You know what? You know, what do we need? We're going to make a commercial somebody, you know, what do we need listed now, how do people, how does it all get there at one time, and so on. And I discovered a lot of the reasons that it hadn't all got that one time. But anyway, there we went. Now, the commercials career was declining. On the other hand, that gave me time to do Michael's job as well as my own. And Patrick Morgan was directing a bit at the time, and Tony x y and our producer, Tony Lawson, Oh yes, oh yes. Who was the big cheese? By the way, for a little while, yes, when he was doing all the Sunday Times

Unknown Speaker  16:25  
got lost, yes,

Keith Ewart  16:29  
but before he was the big cheese, and that the writer, oh, God Almighty, Sunday time he was, he was, and so we carried on making commercials. And then that declined Tony Lawson went, Patrick Morgan went. I was then in comes Martin J lock. And by then we were doing very badly. And Martin J lock had been to America, chasing a wife and getting his children back and all the rest of it. And he wanted to do these commercials. He'd been a producer at Mathers, but he wanted to make commercials again. He had this client in Germany and this and the other so he came on board and took this client, Maggie Nestle is kicking and screaming, into the production of video tape commercials. And I must say, did we lived on it for he did extremely well, well into six figures. He earned and and we did well too for 18 months, two years. It kept us going

Roy Fowler  17:30  
was that the impetus to change the video I had, you know, the impetus to change

Keith Ewart  17:35  
was accidental, as all these things are. What had happened was that there were two William Stewart says, William G Stewart, who's the best producer. I know there's Bill Stewart W Stewart TV, who's the most hopeless moron. This is awful.

Roy Fowler  17:53  
Will embargo? Will embargo the tape? I

Keith Ewart  17:57  
think they'll have to do something. And Bill stood, had the Grandville theater where they were doing a lot of work for the COI. And he had sort of upside down organs hanging on Marconi, four cameras, which produced the most awful results in 16 millimeter because they were working through the prism. The prisms didn't match. And a strange system where the byproduct was the film, but the film was what was their product. I mean, absurd. Anyway, he came to me. They were in financial difficulties. Well, bring it on board here. We're not working either between us for the whole time. Then he got a flash of work for the head, so he I didn't hear from anymore. Then suddenly, on a Wednesday, I think was, or even Thursday, Thursday, Keith, I have to be out by Friday night. For God's sake, that's not giving me any time. He said, Will you come and see the COI? So I went to the COI. Yes, well, I was going to take so I went to the Granville, hooked all his stuff out and bought it in here. And that was this, Germany, rotten system, Germany, I Love Lucy was made of it. So we did at that time, three days a fortnight or four days a fortnight. COI that reduced to two days a fortnight, reduced to two days a month, and that's nearly vanished. William Stewart used to arrive at harpos 12 and leave at half past two. We never did anything, so we shot him away. And gradually I thought, well, either I'm in television or I'm in film, I can't be in this stuff. And the cameramen I'd met were very keen on me going electronic, the television people. I quite liked that new breed of television people. So I bought three television cameras, video tape machines, so on, so forth. Thing in 1973 74 went out on a limb and was going to take the advertising industry, kicking and screaming, into electronic picture making, well, I was like Charlie Chaplin with the red flag, because I looked around, there wasn't a soul there. Absolutely hopeless once more that five people had come to who had all been so keen on this. And. Electronic picture making the first thing they brought, bring Jack O'Connor in from the from SOHO square, who, all he did was insist that we go on to this itba agreement. I mean, frankly, it's only because God looked kind upon us that we didn't go broke. They played us up. They spot the whole atmosphere of the place. It was a disaster of the Union, the five people, there's five people, and Jack O'Connor should have been shot at birth. Absolutely hopeless. Terrible man. Terrible man. He's out now, as you know, yes, but you know, there it was. He was enormous. Well it was, it was a death sentence. And I've never fired anybody in my life, nor can I. I'm not a good manager. I'm not an entrepreneur. I had to wait for them to go away. The nicest one went away. First, Brian Wiseman, who then ran Warner. The second nicest went away. Second, John Beadle, then Phil Haines, who went off the thing. And then Johnny Rees, who went to South America. And then the real bastard, Hendrick Tyler, who went off to New Zealand. And I got a new chief engineer, Graham sage, and Graham sage, from then on, I got a really good team, one at a time. I got the cream, no question about it, one, they picked each other, and I got the right people, absolutely excellent. We had this stuff and so on, so forth. The only thing so I had a wonderful team late for the theme. But of course, the advertising industry was in no way interested in Keith you are, whether he shot on lavatory paper form, whatever Keith you are, was yesterday's chap, and by now most of them hadn't even heard of me because So Martin lock kept us going with his commercials for Maggie, but we had to look for other activity. Martin lock then made demands that nobody could accede to, because they would have gone both. He went off and we were left, once again, stripped. And so we became a facilities company. And as it happens, just at that time, David Frost wanted to do live from London to Australia every Saturday, so we had a bit of work. And so the pop promos, Mike Mansfield and Keith Macmillan, so on, they came in, and one thing led to another, and then Channel Four opened. Well, then the next thing that happened is Mike Mansfield offered me three and a half million. Oh, TV, am TV? AM, 82 TV. AM, wanted frost. This was before that, I beg your pardon, this is before they went on the air, isn't it? Yes, so frost and Jay and Marsh came down one the time they wanted to do TV. AM, and I've got a tape London Weekend news, Thames news, where frost and Jay are standing outside this building, saying, This is where it's all going to be done. I was in America at the time. They just got franchised, and it was the news that night, and the place was shut Christmas break, and the only person who hadn't agreed was me, and it wasn't done

Roy Fowler  23:01  
here that disconcerted you, that disconcerted you? No, no,

Keith Ewart  23:05  
no, it didn't disconcert me. They I felt that they would go to the wall and take me with them. Yes, and they would have done, I mean, Jay, it was Jay, not frost, frost being very good as Jay, nice enough chat, but shouldn't be allowed to manage anything. Have a complete dreamer absolutely and won't listen to anybody talk on business thatch. I mean, how you could? You know, I do love these people who are capitalists with their own money, but socialists with mine. I think that they are amazing, frankly. So

Roy Fowler  23:38  
their wounds were self inflicted, were they?

Keith Ewart  23:40  
Oh, yes, and action and reaction, then we get this lousy bunch in, you see. But of course, it was badly done. It was badly done. It didn't have to be badly done. But he decided that he had the typical British attitude towards the engineer, Grease Monkey. You can buy that. Buy all that. We'll get it off the shelf. Turn Key, you see. So he got the architect off. He went to Camden Town and built the thing. Enormous debts. He got into. It's the next one to do, the same as Wallington and Limehouse. Enormous debts. So anyway, that was then gone, and Martin lock by now gone. And so we had to look for new fields to come. We got the pop promos, and we got David Frost live from London to Australia, so we were doing a certain amount of work, and then Mike Mansfield offered me three and a half million. I nearly sold it, but I had a bit of a squabble at last moment, and that fell through. And at the same time, Limehouse opened. Now Limehouse opened with a rate card that said 13,000 a day, and within six weeks, they were selling it at 2000 a day. And if I had said 1500 they would have sold it at 1000 a day. I couldn't say 1500 so for a year, we didn't work. They got it. They lost four and a half million. When you bear in mind that they could have bought me for three and a half. That wasn't very clever. And in the end, they closed down. They've lost, they lost millions, but they got it back from Olympia and York building the thing. But Channel Four opened, and so there was a bit of business there. And then time passes, BBC started putting work out and even the ITV network. So now, whereas we had before, no customers. Now, we have three customers through 30 production companies, or 10 production companies, whatever it may be, but there is a demand now for the independent studio facility, and probably an increasing demand. I mean, there's going to be troubles. Sky and BSB both standing in front of mirror, cutting their own throats. Sky, sea of cut down their advertising department from 24 to 12. If I were working for Murdoch, I'd make another cut down to three and then down to one, one. Good girl could probably do the lot. Good girl pay a well, yes, all right. She might get ill. She will have an assistant, but I cannot see you need 12 people. Well, how many? They don't sell that much, BSB, are up to 730 million, as I understand, and they're going to get back 730 million. It'll be same as super channel, some nice chap younger than you and I will go in and buy the debts for quid.

Roy Fowler  26:18  
Yeah, yes. I think that's and they it's out of hand that next generation

Keith Ewart  26:23  
on Sky and whatever I think, Mr. What's the name of the the other art socialist, Maxwell, I believe that he's sitting in the wings waiting for the next generation and he'll do well. He's no fool.

Roy Fowler  26:38  
So I think TV n is a good example of precisely Yes, TVA,

Keith Ewart  26:42  
and it's now hand over. Well, they were, of course, they were, as soon as the strike started, they had 12 million in the bank at the end of the strike here, they don't know what to do with the money. What's going to be interesting is, when those people get fed up with working the hours and the pay and this, that and the other and are not union members, what are they going to do. They will organize in some way. The Union, if it has any sense, which it has, will let them back in. And then one might see some order in it, because at the moment, it's a danarky, of course, yes. I mean, I don't know the workings inside it, but it's and of course, there are plenty of union shops doing work for TV, and we won't do any because we've been told not to. And I'm either you belong or you don't belong, we can leave. But either you belong or you don't belong there one or two. Andrew veers lot, for example, even if it's on tape, and I said him, but your ACTT, are you working for that? Oh, it doesn't make any difference to us. Oh, boy, works. Work. ITN

Roy Fowler  27:44  
is doing the same thing. Is it? Is it?

Unknown Speaker  27:48  
Well, it's not on

Roy Fowler  27:50  
the ITN news, because my daughter is

Keith Ewart  27:53  
drink, and I sent her, you should join the ACTT. Oh, no point. I've asked everybody unions dead. Anyway, I got her to fill in a form, and I sent it up, and I hope somebody's looking after it, because, of course, she should, of course, it's not dead, but it will be if the youngsters don't join.

Roy Fowler  28:11  
Well, yes, and I think it's a perception currently that there's nothing the union can do for them, but that's right. Again, it is a process we have to go through. That's right.

Keith Ewart  28:19  
And it's not altogether what the union can do for them. It is, it is, I mean, it should have been a craft union. I mean, there's all sorts of things that matter with their taxation. You know, it should have been something that people proud to be. It is a natural reaction if, if people were totally preoccupied for a whole two years of their career, their total preoccup, how am I going to get into the Union? There is a certain resentment when the union trips and they say, Well, it's time they trip. They gave me a rough enough time.

Roy Fowler  28:48  
People remember how difficult it was to get in. Yes, I think people delight. They're

Keith Ewart  28:53  
wrong. I mean, you know, I mean, I personally would change the management, I think, or an element of the management, although I don't know more than I read in the same papers as you do, but I couldn't get rid of it. I think it's mad. And I don't think that it didn't do with the bosses grinding the faces of the poor in the dust. I think it's very old fashioned. I think it is to do with, yes, craft standards. That's why it should be with a craft union. I think somebody, if he's going to be an operator of this or that, I think he should have to show someone that he's that he can identify poor quality and that he knows what good quality is. Here we have no button pushers. There will be SC and B engine, B, the lot. And I think that's essential even for editors. Oh, we don't. I want a proper editor, old boy, not one of your grease monkeys. Well, you know, when God scattered the talent, the talent to edit, came into one in six children. The talent to get a BSc came to one in 20 children. But some people got a bit of both, pepper pot. You. Don't have to be one or the other. Today, you can be both. You'll be a wonderful engineer who has a gift for it. Of course, you can be in it.

Roy Fowler  30:07  
Are you required to maintain strict demarcations

Keith Ewart  30:13  
natural and, you know, in television, it's not like film. They're quite natural. The demarcation, I mean, the man who's doing the vision can't, at the same time work the video tape machine, as it happens. And the man who's doing the editing isn't, you know, so there are no the man who's doing the sound can't actually at the same time repair the video tape machines, not at the same time, but they can a different time. So they will, but actually he should be too busy looking after his sound machines. If you have the amount of Powell, right for the amount of machinery, you don't actually get this problem.

Roy Fowler  30:43  
No, I didn't mean cutting down on this, on the number of staff, but whether or not they themselves fertilize, of

Keith Ewart  30:49  
course they do. They give they give each other a hand in every area. But on the whole, the vision. People stick to their vision. They prefer it that way. Yes, and they know where everything is. You see, they know where the camera bits are, and so on and so forth. And there are enough of them to do that. Could the next people come in and cut them down by half by having more interchangeability? Yes, until you've got a busy day, then can you call in freelance Rex people? Yes, but they won't know where anything is when there's a breakdown. I mean, it's like the captain on the airline, you know, he gets his 60,000 quid or whatever for doing nothing. He sits up there doing nothing until all four stop. Then suddenly, the man who went flew through the volcanic ash. Then that day, he earned his money. Never earned it before, since, Hi George, he earned it. That day they stopped one to type.

Roy Fowler  31:42  
Well, no. One of the things that strikes me is the fact that so much of it, especially since you left green place, has been, but even before, has been, as it were, happenstance. One thing leading everything, very unexpectedly, all of it, all

Keith Ewart  31:55  
of it, is from joining the army, going into that regiment. I didn't choose it. I chose me, yes, but it does everything. Chose me. That's quite right. Did it work out? Yes, it has to. Because once you're chosen, I mean, it's, it's just, I think, you know, I like the rain, I might as well like the rain, because I live in England and it's going to rain, so a bit like it. There's nobody say, Oh, I hate them. Why hate it. You're only gonna have miserable day. So whatever's happened. Yes, it's alright. I'll have to cope with this. You know, I don't think that's but it is all happenstance. Yes, since

Roy Fowler  32:31  
you're still on the flight deck, what? How do you perceive the future going into it? What about terribly, of the business, yes, or if you were still going to run, continue to run the place, what would you be doing? I'll tell

Keith Ewart  32:46  
you. I think that the that it's nice to hear Mr. Dunn's views every Saturday, whenever Tim's television will put him on every Thursday. I don't think that the standards of programs have anything to do with the management whatsoever. I think you could take the whole management out of the BBC and nobody noticed for a month. I had a very interesting conversation with Cynthia Felgate about, what if play bus, or the previous one, Play School, if the standard went down? And she said, Well, the first person to notice it would be the mother, and then perhaps the child, and then perhaps a producer, and then this, and it would be weeks later before anybody upstairs got to hear about it, because on the whole, the standards here are made not by me. They're recognized by me, and that's helpful. Knowing what's good helps the people who can produce good things. So if I do anything here, I recognize what's good, and as they know, I know what's good, they do it good. But the standards are made by the people, by the engineers and God knows who else, the camera men, wonderful freelance camera in television, standards aren't made by that, by the man. So I can't see first of all that this proliferation of stations is going to affect the standards, as Mr. Sapper keeps telling us, it is just because they're going to be not no people, if they want to work in this industry, are people dedicated to producing better pictures and better sound. You don't get sound engineers who want to produce bad sound. You get sound engineers who that's why they became sound engineers. They want to produce good

Roy Fowler  34:18  
sound. Well, you're talking now of the technical competence of Yes. Now we'll get into the content bit.

Keith Ewart  34:26  
I suppose there will be more game shows, although you might say there could hardly be more, because now they're an awful lot. But I suppose that that is the cheap programming people can do five half hours a day, although William G and his game show is much better than anybody realizes you try and answer the questions. I don't remember what's 15 to one, but if you get through the first round, you're doing well, and you won't get through to the finals, and that's knowing the answers. And never mind, only three seconds for an answer. Of course, it's all trivia, and it doesn't matter. Life goes on whether you know that answer or not, to know how many feathers in the. Wing of a condor. Something is quite irrelevant, but someone knows it out there, and he's the one that's going to win. But they produce only two a day, because William will sometimes three. But other game shows four and five a day. I don't think that means we'll only have game shows in America. Admittedly, you go from channel to channel, and there's one talking head or pair of talking interview after another, all of them rather interesting. I have to say, you get hooked on each one in turn. What about the plays? Well, there'll always be the movies. What about the plays? Well, do we get many now we get soaps and series like Shadow of the noose. Will we still get shadow of the noose? Yes, I suppose we will. Suppose we'll still get shadow of the noose. BBC Two will have as much reason to put that on next year as it has this year. Will the independent stations put it on? What if BBC Two puts it on or not? Certainly independent stations have to. So I don't think it's going to make an atom of difference. The stations will be competing themselves with each other. Now you might say, Ah, well, TV am is TV am is a unique situation because their audience are kids. So they can put on load of cartoons, old cartoons, all day long. Their audience is the kids. So I think it's quite, quite different. And I don't think that because TV am being de regularized, or whatever the word was, has gone to rubbish, that it means that sky and all the rest are going to go to rubbish. I don't think it means we'll still have our ITV network will still have the BBC. I think they'll still be very high standards.

Roy Fowler  36:36  
Well, I suspect one of the key problems for the white paper, as it will affect quality, is that the power now is being given increasingly to the advertising money, and it hasn't been in the past. Well, certainly not with the BBC. And there's been a very handy cartel between within ITV, between the program makers and the technicians and the IBA and the companies themselves, there's been a vast amount of money, a lot of which is

Keith Ewart  37:04  
the BBC. If you remember the start of commercial television, the BBC improved by 500% the year before commercial television. I'm sure that's true. Yes, it was, it was and it was a cartel, the average, it was just, it was the same thing. So I think the advertiser, I mean, the advertisers, if nothing else, demand high standards. They want programs people are going to watch, and not all of them want games. No they want audience. They don't want not all they want also to be able to narrowcast. Well, in

Roy Fowler  37:32  
the States, for example, you get on PBS mobile or someone doing public service broadcasting or sponsoring programming. But essentially, that's BBC programming. They bought cheap. They would never, ever be able to afford that themselves. Now, if the BBC is underfunded,

Keith Ewart  37:47  
the BBC is a wash with money. That's the fact about the BB. It could be it is awash with money. The BBC has so much money it doesn't know what to do with it. You astonish me. Well, it is my confirmed opinion. It's a wash with money. Anybody went in there with a hatchet would do very nicely.

Roy Fowler  38:09  
I agree with that. Yes, they couldn't behave. It's misspent and it's, ah,

Keith Ewart  38:14  
well, it's misspent the National Health Service. That's the trouble everywhere. The trouble is, where do you slash? But, I mean, I quite agree, but it's not in misread. There's no, I don't think there's yet showed any falling in standards of BBC programs that can be attributed to a lack of funds. It might be attributed to a lack of talent or to a lack of drive, but not to a lack of funds. On the Hillier programs, still excellent.

Roy Fowler  38:40  
No, I accept that as the current situation. But we're looking now to the destabilization, the de regularization. Well,

Keith Ewart  38:47  
you have to look, if you look at newspapers, yes, and after the de regularization of the newspapers, what went wrong after we got the independent? As a result of the independent, the standard of art direction on every quality newspaper has doubled and trebled excellent because the independent art directors is so wonderful. Their photography is so staggery. So they all improved. Now, I don't know about editorial content, because I'm not, I'm not a literary chap, but I imagine that it didn't get any worse. I don't think that that on the whole de regularization necessary leads to this fall. Instead, writers still are writers because they want to write. You don't suddenly get the times leader writer say, well, as we're now de regularized, I'm the right rubbish. You may say, well, they'll appoint a different leader writer who write, but no, because people won't buy the times, and they know who their audience is. So I do think it happens. I think it sounds good for Mr. Dunn to say it, but then he has a good reason to say it. He's afraid he's going to lose his license to print money. The quicker he loses it, the better. I can't bear the fat cats, to be honest. I can't bear them. I think the way it was set up was absolutely outrageous when they set it up and they should they. Should leave those fat cats there and put another station next door to each one with the same region, and then watch the improvement. What they don't have is competition. Awful. Now you think I sound like Mrs. Thatcher?

Roy Fowler  40:18  
Well, to some extent I think, as I say, ultimately, for me, it comes back to the amount of money that is available, whether or not new funds will be generated. You seem more optimistic about that? Well, if

Keith Ewart  40:30  
anybody can afford over a million pounds for 32nd commercial, I mean, this is rather the same as the football people crying their eyes out. They have money to make the stadiums better, and they pay 2 million pounds for a transfer for a player. And the same thing in opera. Opera is so heavily subsidized in every major country that wants the best opera house in the world, that people who gets the benefit. Mr. Pavarotti, I don't blame him for playing the system, but if Mr. Pavarotti could only get 500 pounds a night, he'd work for 500 it's only 50,000 or whatever it may be, because you can get it. Why can you get it? Because countries are falling over each other to sponsor their Opera House, and it doesn't go it goes on the stars. The stars bring in the audience. But actually they don't need the audience, because they get so much money, the audience is almost irrelevant to them, I would say, except for political support. I mean, it's crazy, and it's going to be just the same in the enormous amount of money we've just said about TV, am they don't know what to do with all their money. Who's pouring it in?

Roy Fowler  41:34  
But it's money, Gen money, generated by programming that I surely you and I wouldn't choose to watch. That's

Keith Ewart  41:41  
quite right. The advertisers are pouring their money in because they want to put the spots on for an audience of kids, for an audience of kids, unbelievable, isn't it? I don't think that that's I think there's plenty of money around. There's a whole of Europe, some audience, another. How many 100 million people? I don't see the shorter money when you see how it's wasted? Oh yes. I mean, the millions that's wasted, yes, and it's wasted in I mean, look at the cost of a movie. I mean, this is the silly, the hypocrisy of it of Atkins, he stand up there say, oh Elstree, look at the and and George Lucas and the other fellow, we made these wonderful movies at elstre Look. They were applauded in every country in the world, and they won so many awards. They picked up 5000 million dollars in the box office, and Mr. Lucas must have done, and Mr. Whatever the directors must have done, and Mr. Attenborough may have done, and the technicians probably did. But the guy who owned the theater, all they want to keep him open for is to bash his head against Pinewood, which is a four Waller now, because the facilities are at the wrong end of it, but there's no shortage of money. There's a bucket of money in the film industry. What are they saying about BSP six? First Run movies a week? I don't believe it. That's what they're advertising. They don't mean to say they won't run the six again, Save once the next week.

Roy Fowler  43:18  
Well, there again. They're all in the buying spree, aren't they? Oh, fanciful prices, which they can of course, they can afford, because

Keith Ewart  43:24  
they're gonna get straight from the mugs in the stock exchange, you know? But the system is not going to collapse. The fact is that the system can't collapse anymore, because it's got whereas before somebody could say, Ah, we're going to have the Holy Marxism. Now, if they can't find a country except for Cuba, and that's all on Albania, that's on somebody else's money that's tried Marxism. It doesn't say they want out, because nobody can work it to the reason, it's very simple, human beings won't work for the good of a cause. They'll work for the good of their own families. That's a pity. What a shame. Be nice and be very nice. If they were all like Christ, they don't, I don't suppose Karl Marx did either. We're almost

Roy Fowler  44:09  
at the end of this tape. We'll run into the other side and

End of Side 5

Side 6.

Unknown Speaker  0:03  
Side six. So you get the Brotherhood. Talk about the Brotherhood, to the

Keith Ewart  0:09  
brotherhood of whom, or are the union we have, we come to that. You mean everyone.

Unknown Speaker  0:16  
Karl Marx, will have a brief word about the brotherhood.

Keith Ewart  0:17  
I thought you'd given them a fair belting as we went through, right then the you joined the Union after great difficulty. I can't

Speaker 2  0:27  
remember how much difficulty, but they finally condescended. Let me have a ticket. Yes. Bessie bond, yes.

Keith Ewart  0:34  
She thought you or no, she

Speaker 2  0:38  
went out to a pub. And I wish I could do a doer Scottish accent. I'd never trust a man that doesn't drink that was me out. She gave us a ticket. Me and Michael Warners got our tickets.

Keith Ewart  0:56  
Did you subsequently have dealings with Joe Tilden? Oh,

Speaker 2  1:00  
yes. He was as good as gold. Yes, we had one before him. Oh, well, of course, we have shemmings,

Keith Ewart  1:07  
ah brown shelling between bend and another one

Unknown Speaker  1:11  
between, can't remember his name.

Unknown Speaker  1:15  
And then there's Wiles, les Wiles, no

Unknown Speaker  1:18  
less wells, the name I read, Frank. Jeff said, no, thank Jeff.

Keith Ewart  1:25  
Let me know Jack O'Connor was, was he was one your favorite?

Speaker 2  1:28  
Well, he was Frank there, who was our organizer, after Bessie bond. No, there was somebody before shemings Unless it was before Bessie bond. Actually, there was one before Bessie bond who went off to another union. One went off to the miners. Also, he's done quite well.

Unknown Speaker  1:54  
Was Bill Whalen. Never say Bill Whelan, no,

Speaker 2  1:58  
yeah, that's the one I'm thinking of. It was before Bessie bond. It was our first organizer. Bessie Bond came later. That's quite right, yeah, well, no, it doesn't matter all that much. And then you think it was Bessie bond. Then you think, I think there was the odd straggler, and then it was shemmings. No, oh, was there? Well, I don't know when he was and then, oh, did

Speaker 2  2:31  
he all right? Thank you. Midland, who Middleton, who have gone, did with Union funds. We

Keith Ewart  2:39  
had several of those? Oh, yes, I think so. Yes, yes, I say we, but there have been several. Well, I mean, what does what's your residual feeling about ACTT

Speaker 2  2:52  
your is the only union, and therefore we should, somebody should decide what it's for and who it's for, and whether it's for a shop or for a member. In other words, whether the weight of a member here should be the same as a weight of a member in yorkshi television or on the weekend. And I'm I know all about the will of the majority, but on the other hand,

Speaker 2  3:27  
there must be some minority rights, and frankly, our members have not had a fair crack of the whip. Well,

Keith Ewart  3:35  
it isn't only your members. The balance of power in the union, undoubtedly, I think at this stage is quite wrong, because there are so many tiny little shops out in the regions of 234, members and maybe five who get a representative on general counsel, and they can outvote London film division, for example, London television, I agree with you. We've

Speaker 2  3:59  
got old Brookie as the freelance shop steward, who's very good, very intelligent and helpful, not loved by all, I don't suppose, but I like him, Brookstone, Harry Brookstone. And we've got Bob Hamilton as the organizer, who's intelligent, which helps. But I don't know whether, I don't know where the problems I think the problem is an identity crisis. I think the union has, maybe it's always had it, but now it's come to the top, and it's got to decide what its aims. It's got to redefine its aims and objectives in this modern world, it's in process. I see. Is it doing that? Well, I cannot see it happening without a visible it's not only got to happen, it's got to be seen to be happen, happening, but the risk of being I don't mind now being drowned out of the union because I'm the. Eric, I think it means that Uncle sapper has to go,

Keith Ewart  5:04  
well, a lot of people support that thesis. He does go next year. I think it is or the year after he willy nilly. But I mean,

Speaker 2  5:14  
well, once you start getting breakaways, however unsuccessful, it is a sign that all is not well. And once you start getting people getting away with not recognizing the union, unilaterally tearing up agreements without consultation, as all the stations are doing, once you get that, somebody should stop and say, Hey, all is not well. May not be his fault or his fault, but there's got to be now some urgent changes.

Keith Ewart  5:44  
But it was the breakaway group that, in effect, tore up the agreements. It was they who said they will, they will not be a national agreement. So that was the union's fault, or members of the union's

Speaker 2  5:54  
fault? No, but of course, the union is the members. So, I mean, you know

Keith Ewart  5:58  
again, it that that particular area had become the captive, the placing of a group of motivated people I don't know. As

Speaker 2  6:05  
I say that once it's got to that stage, it may be too late to do much about it, but, but it's not too late, I don't suppose, and I sincerely hope to salvage the situation. But unless somebody does something, and you're not going to get suddenly, people who've done a hard day's work to go off to union meetings every week, they won't do it. You'd be surprised. A number do I agree, but I but generally speaking, people want to go home their wives and children, and they that's true. And what you have to ask is, why do my people belong to the union? Why do they belong to the union?

Unknown Speaker  6:44  
Can you answer that? No,

Speaker 2  6:48  
they probably give you a reason that didn't actually match the facts and the situation. Why they joined the Union, they'll all tell you, because they bloody well had to.

Keith Ewart  6:58  
They had to, and the Union had gotten them extremely good conditions

Speaker 2  7:07  
in the heyday. Yes, I just, I, yes, I why I've stopped dead on that is that I think that it is very difficult. This is the old Arthur Scargill bit. It is very, very difficult to adjust to the idea that very good conditions that actually cause the downfall of the structure of the industry. To achieve those was worthy. I think that that to say, I mean, the film industry is a better example, before the war, finally and during the war, and just after the war, the union got the film people, very, very good conditions. All travel first class, all this, all that, all that, and broke the film industry. Now you may say it wasn't that the book, I think you're simplifying. Yes, I think I'm always accused of simplifying, but the fact of the matter is that it is relatively simple to say that you're sending everybody first class when you know it is some something that that you can't afford to do all the

Keith Ewart  8:20  
time. This is like the BBC, vast areas of waste, indeed. And

Speaker 2  8:29  
the BBC is different because it's guaranteed license, so they might try it on, although, if the BBC got too expensive because of labor malpractices, somebody would stop it like, in other words, the public would go on strike and not pay their license fees. The BFI has got to be careful to stay with the public. But I think the the commercials, I mean, it's the way it was. I don't black blame people for playing the system. I'm, you know, it sounds if I'm doing that. No, you can't blame people for playing the system. You can only blame whoever set it up. I can't remember who it was for setting up a license to print money monopoly,

Keith Ewart  9:04  
and it was the car up for a great many years, companies were taking away wheelbarrow loads of money, and the technicians wanted their share, which seems to me quite reasonable. That's quite right. They were overpaid, certainly, and they had

Speaker 2  9:20  
the agencies were largely responsible, because the big strike in 84, five, whenever it was when they were going to settle in August for 678, percent, and the station management, Thames particularly, decided, no, it wasn't going to and when They got to Christmas. J Walter Thompson, as I understand, who on the verge of bankruptcy through not having any television commercials, went and said, we'll pay. Our clients will pay, settle. They settle for 18% they could have settled for 8% in August. So the agencies also said there's a bottomless pit of cash. Pay. We want peace. Those stats.

Keith Ewart  10:01  
Well, as you know, agencies do, it isn't their money. They just, they just percentage on the top I say, We're sorry, but

Speaker 2  10:09  
don't think the program makers aren't starting to do the same, because they get 10% production fee now. So they start saying, oh, you know, yes, right, your facilities won't be 20,000 there'll be 22,000 that's good because it means another 200 for me. So there's a certain amount of that going to go on, but it's no good. It's no good if it means that prices go up, it's no good because in the I mean, if I thought that I could cope with all of it, I wouldn't be retiring. I mean, what do I see in the future? They'll have to be clever people to me, but I suppose it'll be run by accountants. But it doesn't mean the programs will be no good.

Keith Ewart  10:53  
It's arguable we should either live to see or we should in

Speaker 2  11:00  
America, the programs aren't bad. The current affairs in America are very good. The news programs and so on, very good.

Keith Ewart  11:08  
Well, I don't find they satisfy me because they presuppose such a short attention span, and I much prefer subject to be dealt with in depth. But how

Speaker 2  11:18  
often do you get that here? BBC, two news night, maybe, if it was down till 1030

Keith Ewart  11:23  
there are one or two programs, but at least there are a few programs and still do survive. Since the the ACTT, members, by their contributions of not their membership dues, but appeals to membership, have paid for the tape. We'll just see what else we can say about them. Have you, Keith, ever participated in the affairs of the Union? Difficult

Speaker 2  11:50  
because I'm the governor, but I did go to a union meeting. Might have been less than a year ago. There's a freelance shop, but it was to do with the rates for cameramen and so on. And I did speak at that as a camera man, no, as me. And it was one, I said. I rang Brookie and said, Oh, I think I may have run Bob Hamilton. And said, Look, you know, I know I'm a governor. Can I come this time? It's particular interest. He said, Yes. And I, in fact, said a few words, because this whole thing. Of the camera man's fee is 150 quid a day or something. And there are three of them maybe on the shoot, or that's 450 a day on the budget. And now do they get one and a half tea at weekend? Or two tea at weekend? Big battle now with Channel Four totally irrelevant in the budget. And if a camera man is not worth 150 quid, then they shouldn't pay him 150 quid. The ones I know are worth more. They're marvelous. They save you hours for start. They just get it there. They've got it right. And so I stood up and had a few words about that, whether it did any good, but I otherwise, as a governor, is not easy, except to be sympathetic to when the shop steward comes in said, look, I've got to do this and the other you say, well, go and do it. That's the only thing you can do. Is to create a climate in which the shop can thrive, more or less, as indeed it has, except in this very rough time with those five bums. Actually only two of them were bombs, but you only need two bombs. I What

Keith Ewart  13:20  
was it they were doing? Totally disruptive, deliberately so, just because of their attitude, because of

Speaker 2  13:30  
that attitude, and deliberately so they wanted to show who the masters were, and they just had to ride it out. It is depressing. I mean, you wouldn't believe one day, they decide take the day off, or went, went off sailing for a day. Can you hear things booked in? Oh, yes. They thought they'd provoke me into a fight, and they wouldn't, because I've never had a fight. My own people fight their own people. You're sunk. So they didn't. I just had to wait till they went away, which, fortunately, they did. You couldn't dispose of them. No, I couldn't dispose of them. There was the I didn't want all that difficulty. And then with the we had a silly example of that with Martin lock. He had a girl who he employed on some basis or other, and for her tax reasons, employed as a freelance and this that the other and so on. And when he finally went the union suddenly rang us. She'd been underpaid by 1100 pounds. I don't know what arrangement he'd made. She was only on that freelance, basic basis for tax reasons or something. I paid it and to help it. I resent it because I was conned. But I'm just not going to squabble. You know, I'm not going to I'm just not going to lie too short, yeah, I'm not going to waste my energies on that, although I must say it's a waste of energy. Waste of energy even to remember it. But I've always remembered it,

Unknown Speaker  14:45  
but it's demeaning to be forced into situations.

Speaker 2  14:48  
We had a similar example with another union, and only a very short time ago, the jazz fellow rang me up, who I know quite well. The Jazz warriors had asked me, asked him to cover their program, do a program, and I said. Where is it? Or the Festival Hall. It was Queen Elizabeth Hall. So what are you doing? She said, Well, I've got a low band and a cow, so you can't cover that with a low band and a whatever. But I'll do a program about jazz Warners, if they want to. I'd quite enjoy to do it. So fine. So next day, I met the man and so on. How much it cost, if we pay and everything all three days? Well, it's 1500 a day. All right, let me see Channel Four. Might buy it four and a half 1000. I'll try next thing. We cut it down to two days for our own reasons. I can't remember what they were. Now. What's it going to cost? There's still 4500 so I thought, Oh, well, I'm being taken but All right, I'll bite the bullet. Yeah, agree. So I start planning a call from the musicians union. They're being underpaid. They're only allowed to produce 20 minutes of music, and this says, Look, I'm doing a documentary for them that channel four say they'll put on at 10 o'clock on a Saturday night. And I'm never going to be paid what it costs to do it. I wouldn't be, no way. I can't observe anyway, I don't need 30 music to tell them to have 16. I don't care, you know? Oh, well, there's so anyway, we get onto them and they somewhere. It's changed around and whatever it may be, and then the union's on again. But by the time, the one second time I said the programs off and I didn't make it, never made it. And it's a great shame. It's only a month ago going to be my last program. Great shame. It would have been a wonderful program for them. Me, does it make any difference? I have made it. None at all

Keith Ewart  16:35  
for them. Where in lay the fault was that something they were

Speaker 2  16:39  
trying lay the port was the union has negotiated wonderful terms and conditions for its people, so much so that nobody can afford to make the program

Keith Ewart  16:48  
right. But was that the union's Initiative, or was it these people? Well, I'm trying to ring a little more.

Speaker 2  16:54  
They appointed for the shoot a very nice tuba player turned up straight from the barber can good musician, and I had a coffee with him, and I said, Look, I'm terribly sorry nobody's told you, but the shoot has been canceled. Was canceled three weeks ago. He said, I've never told so I said, well, and I told him the whole story. Said, Oh, well, we were told we were playing for nothing, for the publicity. So tell me

Keith Ewart  17:17  
that sounds like some GI organizer. Well, God knows the news got them, and so does

Speaker 2  17:26  
everybody else, but they can't afford them today, because, Oh, Mother Thatch is after us, if you like, and we can't afford it. We know it doesn't mean, because of the abuse, that it's a bad idea. Unfortunately, what's happened is, because of the abuse, people have started saying, like, the organization's not worth having, and that cannot be true.

Keith Ewart  17:45  
Well, the Fred kites survive, and I think somehow they are being well, for example, Jack O'Connor is now entirely out of the picture at some cost to the union, because he had to be bought off. Well, he wouldn't go quietly. Well, he's

Speaker 2  18:01  
the one that negotiated all those wonderful terms we're talking about. He negotiate, negotiated them here, and it's only by luck that we weren't closed down. Yes, because what you have to remember is that the shareholders here have never had a evening that I draw less money than many others in the building. The door goes into equipment, and if it was a normal companies, what the problem is now in selling the thing, they say, who wants to buy you its hobby? You know? So it's only because we were run in that way, because the hobby that we did survive. Otherwise, Mr. O'Connor would have killed us.

Keith Ewart  18:36  
Well, I said to Roy Lockett, that what we need around here. I wanted them Water Street or a few killer yappies. Because that's, that's the name of the game if we're going to survive.

Unknown Speaker  18:43  
Well, I don't quite agree with you there. Neither do you, neither

Unknown Speaker  18:47  
do, neither does he know.

Speaker 2  18:50  
I know what we need. Which union is it? Is it the engineering I mean that you see now one or two really good general secretary, whatever they call the boss of the Union, general secretary. Is it the engineering unit? I can't remember. That's the youngish man, yes, burning an accident, yes, about to merge. No. Chip on his shoulder. WP, what's the conditions for his members? Knows his job talk sweet and knows the companies have to be profitable, but once he slices the cake, but doesn't want to kill the whole thing, you know, good. And surely there's a future. I mean, I don't know if Mrs. Thatcher would like the world without unions, whatever everybody thinks about, I don't think she'd like it. It wouldn't be convenient. We're going to see, we'll see, though, the we'll see at TV am under sky. Mind you guys here using a lot of union labor, mixed up with no union labor,

Keith Ewart  19:46  
yes, yes. That's quite interesting. The chances are probably there'll be a shop formed, well, I'm guessing, but I would

Speaker 2  19:53  
have they'd recognize it. They don't recognize. They recognized or not. They've got to recognize it because it's there. Mind you, they can still. Bring in nowadays non union people, because otherwise the laws on them in the same way that I suppose if the union people wouldn't work there, they might be in legal difficulties. Not too sure what the law is.

Keith Ewart  20:16  
I don't think anyone is required to work for a company they don't want to work for, but I can't imagine many ACTT members turning down work.

Speaker 2  20:24  
But that's one of the problems, in a way, and almost sometimes at any price. I mean, there is that problem as well. I'm afraid there's always somebody who, if somebody says, Well, I pay 1t they'll take 1t and I don't blame they've got to feed their families. But well, that's surely what's happening. I mean, we do, you see, and after dark is 12 at night to three in the morning on Saturday night. Now, our people go up to 40 that night, and they earn every penny of it. Channel Four won't even pay two or not more than two. Yes, it doesn't affect my people, because it all comes out of our money, but it affects the Freelancers, and they've held out for it, and channel four just won't negotiate. And I think the program won't be made, and I don't suppose the world will miss it, because nobody's watching television 12 night on Saturday night, but it is a problem. And I think that if you say something's going to work on Saturday night, from 12 till three in the morning on Sunday, you can't get more on social hours than that. And in fact, all right, if it's 3t I think it is or 2t they're talking about, you pay the man 300 quid. Well, alright, he's not going to work on Monday. You know, he might work on money. He's not gonna have a weekend. He's gonna have to. It's not unreasonable. It's not unreasonable. But Channel Four don't agree with that. But then, since Mr. Gray got there, channel four have done nothing interesting enough. I mean, like Isaacs or not, but you've got to give him credit. He got a new channel going, which really had a lot of original stuff in his lot of questionable stuff, good, a lot of arguable stuff, good. Or, you know, he did do his job. I must say, since he went, what have we seen that's new on Channel Four? Nothing. Well, we're seeing his arguments with the unions. Well, that's no good.

Unknown Speaker  22:06  
Yes, arguments with the unions and with the program makers,

Speaker 2  22:08  
with the program makers as well. Actually, yes. I mean, if channel I would have liked, before I retired, to have this place totally independent of Channel Four, it's not possible. But that's that would have been if somebody had said where you were success in your career, then I would have been able to say, Yes, I have to say with reservations. Now really,

Keith Ewart  22:29  
that seems almost impossible of achievement under any circumstances, merely because they are the primary sponsors BBC.

Unknown Speaker  22:36  
I'd like to have worked entirely for the BBC, finest broadcasting organization in the

Keith Ewart  22:43  
world. Well, I think most people in this country would agree with that. How much? How does it break down between, between those entities? How much goes to I think

Unknown Speaker  22:53  
about 50% channel 430, 5% BBC and 15%

Unknown Speaker  22:59  
others. The BBC put so much out? Well,

Speaker 2  23:02  
we do that not one program. Don't forget, we've got limited output here. That one program is very good for us.

Keith Ewart  23:11  
And with the third stage, you think it would be filled? Could be filled?

Speaker 2  23:14  
No, it's not a problem of whether people Well, the problem is, if you take a program every Friday night, don't Thursday, shoot Friday. Go out live Friday night. Now, somebody wants to do game shows four week block booking can't take so you've got 30 weeks Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, empty. In the meantime, somebody with a four week block booking comes in, somebody wants to do 30 weeks live, can't do it. I've got a four week block in the middle. So you have to have two stages in order to be able to schedule at all, which is expensive, but I mean, the cost of facilities will increase. People will pay more. They'll get used to paying more. They've got to or they won't have them, because, again, once I'm gone, even my heirs and successors, whoever they may be, they're not going to work for a hobby. They'll close it down if it's not profitable.

Keith Ewart  24:04  
Is there any limit to the investment in equipment? Because that seems to be a no win. No. It's

Speaker 2  24:13  
not so bad broadcast as it is in commercials, because we don't have to have the latest gadget all the time. I mean, our equipment lasts us 10 years, we get a good life. So

Keith Ewart  24:23  
what? It's basic studio equipment, cameras, digital, but

Speaker 2  24:28  
not Harry and all these weird, wonderful things we don't

Keith Ewart  24:33  
mirror. You'd never be able to amortize that kind of thing. No, in any case, we did. People in broadcast don't want them on the hill. It's commercials. They were nine, seven, day, 10, day wonders, whatever that

Speaker 2  24:43  
they can afford it. See commercials pay 600 now. They use the thing for six months. They can chuck it away. There's a bottomless pit of money. Goes out of fashion anyway, the truth is that there is that the industry is awash with money and more so since people. Weren't paying five and 6t they've got even more money. The client isn't paying any less. The client's paying more. So with smaller crewing and more money coming in the front door, as my liberal old uncle used to say, and I'm sorry for the tape, figure nigger, somebody's doing well. BBC is doing well. Their license fees gone up, the staff costs gone down. They're closing in line Grove, they're closing all those theaters.

Unknown Speaker  25:32  
They're putting work out which is cheaper. The BBC doesn't know what to do with all its money.

Keith Ewart  25:41  
Well, there again, I hadn't realized they were so so well off. Um, I suppose we have to call on you for some kind of peroration now looking back on the verge of retirement, which say it's almost impossible, I must say, to believe that it will actually happen.

Speaker 2  25:59  
Well, I'd be very disappointed if it didn't. I'm known by the end of May, I've known a month's

Keith Ewart  26:05  
time. Well, as you said earlier, if it isn't this one, then be another. I am going

Speaker 2  26:12  
and it doesn't matter. And all this end of an era and all the rubbish.

Keith Ewart  26:15  
Well, it is an end of an era in the sense that you were unique as an individual and a loner, to what you know, you did it your way. Yes, the occasional assist from from Fortune,

Speaker 2  26:31  
enormous assistance fortune. But yes, I mean, I think that I was alone, not a very good committee man. I mean, this is the trouble. The only times I've ever tried to be on any country, I'm no good at it, you know. And so I was selected once a creative circle, and I resigned. And I'm the only person that's ever resigned twice, because they came on again, and I came to one meeting. And so all the people sitting on this when I was still doing on the top table, who, in my opinion, were responsible for the terrible situation. And I walked out. I resigned again.

Keith Ewart  27:06  
There's something offensive. People calling themselves creative tell me if, if you hadn't been you, who would you rather prefer to have been? Is there anyone?

Speaker 2  27:18  
Of course, the people whose work had mile was so miserable. But I can't say I like to be in Gustav Mahler, because such a miserable chap. But I suppose it would be nice to be able to write down music as if you're taking dictation. I mean, it's not mine. He died rather young. It's very difficult.

Keith Ewart  27:39  
He died rather young. But you would rather been a musician, a composer.

Speaker 2  27:42  
We've had two composers. I probably would have liked to have been, yes, I suppose I wouldn't mind being a non Nazi version of von Karahan 10 who Claus

Unknown Speaker  27:56  
tenstead, that's not a name, wonderful

Speaker 2  27:58  
conductor. He's German. Yes, I'd like to be he's still, he's still going strong. Well, not too strong. He's got cancer the throat, but without the cancer of the throat, I would like to be tensioned, to be able to stand up in front of an orchestra and get what he gets. That must be rewarding. All gift of God. You see nothing. He doesn't do anything. It's all in there. It's delivered in the box,

Keith Ewart  28:20  
but this is your own decision what to do, how to do it. So conducting Noel is an interesting spot.

Speaker 2  28:28  
No, well, yes, I mean, but you don't, you know you strap hang, don't you? I mean, you, you really wouldn't have elected sit here headphones on your head talking to me. I mean, pleasant as it may be, but you know what I mean? It's where you find yourself in.

Keith Ewart  28:43  
I don't accept that, since I think what we're doing is it's a nice way to spend a few hours, but I hope it's going to be useful for the future. God, I'm a great

Speaker 2  28:55  
will they be open by then? The medium, they won't you'll have to put the tape recorder in there with it.

Keith Ewart  29:04  
You edit them down. No, no, no. The Masters go to Berkhamsted to the National Film Archives. Have a certain weight to our endeavor, and then there'll be a copy in the BFI library. If anyone wants to check on the thoughts of teeth you were to Noel is also when we have the transcribed to anybody who's listed the whole thing,

Unknown Speaker  29:28  
whoever you are,

Keith Ewart  29:31  
we'll transcribe it because it's one of the more interesting ones I've done. Do cut it down? No, no, no, we don't edit at all. No, it is archival, although I do want to look forward now to maybe publication with with the subjects permission. But before we do that, we have to transcribe when you've got your ten million from this place, we'll hit you for a little money for the transcription fund. It's not 10 either, by the way, round figures. No, you need

Speaker 2  29:59  
one of those. Wonderful machines. They'll take it straight off the tape and type it out, which they have, don't they? I don't know,

Keith Ewart  30:08  
a room, a room full of equipment at MIT, some Japanese laboratory,

Unknown Speaker  30:13  
yes, just play the tape.

Keith Ewart  30:17  
It all comes out. I'm told that AC, TT now has a scanner, and I'm not sure what that is, whether that, no, no, no, it has to do with all this, whether it just, I think, it translates a written document on into a computer bank, a memory bank, I think, but I wouldn't swear to see so things are, they're giving up the cool pens, and they're gradually dragging themselves kicking and screaming. But there are still a few cloth caps around that have to be, yeah. But

Speaker 2  30:44  
the trouble with the cloth caps is that, on the whole the you know, I mean the number of again, they're people who are. We have a few here. They drive in with their BMWs. As they leave their BMW, they put on their cloth cap and come in to work as an electrician in the studio. And I'm afraid there's a pose. I know, Warner cloth cap burn more blow stairs than most of

Keith Ewart  31:12  
them. So there may be a pose. I'm not sure. Well, I think it is. Well, I'm not saying with these people, I was thinking about surviving organizers of a previous generation.

Speaker 2  31:22  
I think that they don't want anybody to think that they've been elevated. If that's the word to the middle classes, that's

Keith Ewart  31:33  
an interesting point. Whether we shall be a nation of middle classes or not. I think we shall the way things are going. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we like a banana monarchy.

Speaker 2  31:42  
I don't care about passing at all. I think that there is still, although we never meet them, there is still enough a class that has nothing to do with any of us, but the working classes is there's a lot of myth about that. I'm afraid.

Keith Ewart  31:55  
Well, it's changing. It has to change, because

Speaker 2  31:59  
nonsense. The line between so called working and middle class might have existed when every doctor had a maid, but I mean now really it just doesn't work. It is really complete nonsense. I mean, in theory, all those musicians are only allowed to play 20 minutes a day of working class. That doesn't sound like a day's work to me, 20 minutes a day. I've been making a hand on program you played 20 minutes a day.

Keith Ewart  32:30  
Yeah, I hadn't really thought about that. What do you get for 20 minutes a day? I mean, what do they get paid for 20 minutes a day? That was a special Well, I

Speaker 2  32:39  
was never decided. I mean, that was the other the other block is whatever we paid that we still only got 20 minutes. Was that

Unknown Speaker  32:46  
the sort of minimum time segment that you could buy? The maximum?

Speaker 2  32:48  
I think, I think there's no minimum. We got 20 minutes of music. You could only record a record 20 minutes a day. It's disappearing in vision as well. You say, I don't know. Don't ask me the ins and outs of the musicians union rules. But when he appears in vision as well, you see so you can, you can rehearse, and then the price of no performance, it's documentary, for God's sake. But I mean, I didn't, I didn't, I didn't make it. Well,

Keith Ewart  33:18  
understandably. So I'm afraid there are many programs in that nature. When anybody

Speaker 2  33:22  
listens to this date, what are we 1989, so nobody will be interested till 2090, 20/101 of all, there'll be no machines that play it. And secondly, nobody will know for the life what the ACTT is, what was a trade union? Daddy? They say, Well, that was a lot of workers who got together. What a workers daily.

Keith Ewart  33:43  
You're looking on the downside of things, because there's a temperature controlled environment at Burke hunts dead, so the tapes will survive and all the written records. This is something that we've done the machine, but what are they going to play? We'll lodge the machine necessary, or there'll be one in the Bradford museum or the Science Museum. There'll be no spare parts for it. Well, we'll get them transcribed. It's happening

Speaker 2  34:03  
now with well film, of course, happens. You can't see Shane anymore. Shane's gone because no negative, no print, no nothing gone. Many other films as well. With tape, our quad tapes are all gone. We still have a quad capable, different enough. Now, one inch gone, yes, any moment now, and this is d2 coming, and all the other thing. And in 10 years, you won't be able to play stuff that we made, nothing. You can play it on the head. Wheels don't work. Can't get spares we've thrown out yesterday that you know, you probably don't remember, the kcu cameras, the Bosch fans say, televisions. We gave them to a local basement studio and the lenses. But, like, you can't even use the lenses, shouldn't

Unknown Speaker  34:46  
you give them to the Science Museum? Oh, Science Museum

Speaker 2  34:48  
has cameras coming out of the team. Well, providing they do, oh, they're not sure cameras at Science Museum or Bradford, which is, oh, no, they all have their week had three. The RCA, whatever they want on BTR, machines can't be what they call inch machine, yes, and one museum said it would take it, providing we shipped it to them. The London Film School said they'd send the transport and they take two away. I can't remember what happened. But in the end, we were near to throwing them in the river. We couldn't get rid of them. Nobody wanted them like trying to get rid of a peacock.

Keith Ewart  35:29  
Well, it's shameful. But then, on the other hand, even if all this turns out to be a wasted exercise, at least we tried, oh

Speaker 2  35:37  
yes, I just wonder which historian could be remotely interested in the in the life of a not too eminent commercials maker of the 50s and 60s, because I think that during the big the commercials, that everything that are really in the archives and so on are Ridley Scott's whatever and so on that, you know, I don't think they're necessarily The ones product

Keith Ewart  35:59  
you I think with with all respect and truth, I think you're more key figure, in a way, than Ridley, because Ridley just did what other people were doing. You better?

Speaker 2  36:08  
Yes, I think, I think it's, it's at once true and false. I think in truth, I am because I broke a mold. But I think in history, I have gone I don't mind at all. I'm not saying it so that you're going to deny it. Because I think if you read everything, Ridley is the one that's there in history. And I think what actually happened and what was perceived to have happened are two very different things. Ridley was very late on the scene. I mean, he became my designer because Maryland husband died, and she was having a child and so on. But history perceives it differently, and there's no history being written of it to talk of. I mean, omnibus got a bit close to it. But then even omnibus, which did 45 minutes around the 25th anniversary of commercial television, I've got a copy somewhere. And they even had Nicholas Parsons and his wife, whatever name, little Noddy. They went there with their commercials. They only made one. I mean, they somehow, somebody steers these producers into some complete side track. You see, they're nice enough people, but they were nothing whatever to do with the commercials. But

Keith Ewart  37:10  
again, what what we're doing, I think, to some extent, very slight. We're in a very slight way, yeah, because we one of the very first people, I think maybe the first we interviewed was Dallas Bauer, who was at Alexander powers in the 30s at BBC television. And he made a film which is always used as a depiction of BBC television in 3536 whereas actually it was a film it has nothing whatsoever to do with television as it then existed, although they were using individuals and sets. No, the terrible thing is that there's one print of that film which survives the BBC archive copy has just been cannibalized over the years, so just snippets remain, and Dallas has got the one virgin history is written. Is what's available.

Speaker 2  38:01  
That's quite right, because I can tell you that a certain day, and I remember it well when we had to clear out these floors because we were starting to wow for television. And underneath all the floorboards were can upon can upon can and can again, of commercials. And we rang various agencies, and most of them said, Oh, chuck them away. And we had the pleasure of chucking away the history of commercial television.

Keith Ewart  38:23  
I'm sorry you took pleasure in that, because you should have called the National Hill archive. I didn't

Speaker 2  38:27  
think they'd be remotely interested. But in my opinion, every can contained a row, and I was glad to see the backup. As I opened them, I heard the noise tell but there it was. I mean, they were all the early experiments for J Walter Thompson, 16 millimeter, terrible,

Keith Ewart  38:43  
terrible. I think shame on you. All gone. Nothing remains at all, nothing. Well, if you rip up a few more floor balls, nothing. Because should it happen? No, then that's it. No more. Noel gone, when was that?

Unknown Speaker  39:01  
1975 i Five. They didn't realize. It is with the light. They didn't realize. They didn't even know who I was. The guy called York commercial tender threw them away for God's sake. Well, all right, I shall. I said,

Keith Ewart  39:22  
I think on that dismal note, we'll conclude and leave those people in that unknown future to weep or gloat, who's

Speaker 2  39:32  
probably won't be born for another 20 years, and then suddenly decides to rest all this. Good day to you, sir.

Keith Ewart  39:41  
Keith, a very interesting talk. Unless you have anything else to add, I'll say that's the end of it. Thank you very much indeed. Bye bye bye.

End of Side 6